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The Forum > Article Comments > Those who say nay to growing up > Comments

Those who say nay to growing up : Comments

By Judith Ireland, published 7/1/2005

Judith Ireland looks at the options available to Gen-Yers in Australia today.

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That's one of the best articles I've read in ages, thanks!

Actually, I went and read your previous article in Online Opinion and I thought that was great too. Presumably you've now finished the final year of your degree? Good luck with your career, I look forward to reading more of your work in the future.
Posted by Kalpa, Friday, 7 January 2005 1:42:04 PM
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Dear Judith -

I think some people of our generation are digging a bit deeper than 'what I want to be when I grow up'. A previous article by Amanda Fairweather (29/12/04) certainly suggests so. I prefer to think our generation is focussed on 'how I want the world to be'.

In my argument, I am not out to burden people with mortgage's or unwanted relationships families...but believe people in their 20s deserve to be sold the choice upon which I myself stumbled. That is one of becoming a family, committing to a relationship and perhaps finding there is a lot of meaning in that.

There is an overwhelming amount of resources spent on selling singledom, travel and freedom of independance. Surely, we should question the forces that are selling the single life, when it is well documented that the single life bears the largest disposable income. An income marketers are keen to tap into.

The continued cynicsm towards relationships and family structures is concerning. Family units (of all types - as beautifully articulated in the December Feature) are the basic structure of community. Humanity has grown for thousands of years through the bonds of family that branch into extended family and community.

Families, marriage and responsibility do not have to be the stereotypes that you use to respresent them. They can be as diverse and varied as the sub-cultures we use to seek some meaning for ourselves and this life. As the young families I associate with make them. Most of us still rent, we work part-time, we spend time as communal family groups pursuing the same interests as other 20-somethings: creating music, art and contributing to the world in a positive way.

For our generation of creative people to put all their energy into their own experiences while 'joints are still limber and your liver can hack the pace' is to deny our generation of children that energy and enthusiasm for life. This is especially the case if we all put off having kids until we are cynical and jaded.

There is nothing wrong with pursing a career, or fame, or travel. But, there is something wrong if that is held up as more valuable than having a family or accepting some other form of responsibility in your 20s.

I found the responsbility of being a dad at 23 as exiciting as a rave and more fulfilling than pursing fame in Melbourne's arts scene. That's just me. But, it's an experience I think is worth sharing.

I appreciate your engagement with the debate. It is one that needs to continue.

cheers,
Posted by Daniel Donahoo, Sunday, 9 January 2005 12:17:46 AM
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Daniel,

I reread Judith's article just now to be sure I was right here. I think you misread it. She didn't promote any views about anything. The article was a very successful attempt at bringing some humour into sometimes heated and usually serious debate.

I'm not saying any of your points are invalid, because I agree with most of them, your obviously pro choice. I do think they are in the wrong spot. This forum has many articles on this issue which seek to promot a particular opinion. I think opinion critiques belong with them.
Posted by Kalpa, Sunday, 9 January 2005 3:41:32 AM
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"There is an overwhelming amount of resources spent on selling singledom, travel and freedom of independance. Surely, we should question the forces that are selling the single life, when it is well documented that the single life bears the largest disposable income. An income marketers are keen to tap into."

You've got all the right arguments but around the wrong way! The media relentlessly champions children and babies, cheer the women that have them and boo the ones who don't (see most articles on the recent split of Jen&Brad - she is being crucified as selfish because she dare say she would rather a career than baby-drool...and that's not necessarily why they split up at all - it's a morality tale, not reporting!).
As far as having the largest disposable income - that may be true, but for actual consumerism the breeder set win hands down.... just think about how many nappies Junior used in the first year of his/her birth... Plus the income you think of as 'disposeable' for these horrible selfish childfree single people is (partly at least) going to ensure they are not a burden on others in their old age, somehow this is seen as more selfish and less responsible than bringing another human into the world for the same purpose...
On that - how is it more responsible and less selfish to have a child you cannot support and expect my taxes to pay for your lifestyle choice? Yep...logical....

Encouraging people to have children keeps the ol' capitalism ticking over, not to mention an easier population to control (who's got the energy to question the powers that be when daddy is working a 60 hour week and mummy is so mind-numbingly bored that her brain has turned to mush...?). I don't blame people for not accepting being told what they want anymore, considering most of us have had the good sense to leave organised religion - why would we start taking orders from someone else...?

More than anything, I can't believe you fail to recognise any other benchmark of responsibility than doing what people tell you to.
It's very sad for you Daniel, but I have hope for your child.

They say misery loves company - this is what I hear you saying...
"But I've got a mortgage and a trapped stagnant life! You should have to do that too! How DARE you make a better choice than me..."
Posted by Newsroo, Thursday, 13 January 2005 8:50:26 AM
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Dear Newsroo,

I don't deny people the choice to have a family of any shape, or to pursue a single life.

I don't believe I have the arguement the wrong way around. The 'breeder' set might appear to win hands down, but you provide little evidence - what does a baby cost? Well, like all things it can cost the earth or it can cost very little. You cite disposable nappies (cloth is an option), but on the other hand new parents are less likely to be buying iPods, plasma screens and a host of the burgeoning identity linked consumer goods. This is primarily the case becuase family brings a new form of identity that does not rely on consumer goods as forming an identity or linking you to a subculture - you have a kid now, your subculture is defined by that.

At 23 I became a father and personally it has given me more humility and selflessness than I thought I could possibly have. It is a single experience and I know there are countless others.

Statistically, several social economists clearly show that when it comes to accruing wealth and creating an asset foundation for the future - couples and families win hands down. It is linked to the possibility for combined assets, duel incomes, but also spending less on consumption.

You are correct that our consumer society has not left children and parents alone. I have met families spending tens of thousands of dollars on renovations all rvolving around the new room for the baby.

Our problem in this debate appears we are all at an impass - wanting to proclaim some lifestyle that everyone should pursue. This is pointless. No one can make a better choice than anyone else about their life path. It is a personal decision made for an individual person. And, I do think your 'misery loves company' remark borders on insulting when you know nothing about my family life and make some gross assumptions.

My family rent in a rural town. I work 3 days a week and share the childcare responsibilties with my wife, who is studying. We choose not to use childcare - because of cost, access and issues we have about quality of care. We use cloth nappies. And, almost 100% of our children's clothes are hand-me-downs.

I don't believe Jen needs to be crucified - or any other women or men who make the decision not to have children. What I fear is that young people are not seeing parenthood as even a choice. It is an option I wish to promote. It may not be for you or countless others - but people in their twenties rarely consider parenthood as a possible path.

My experience, and the few friends my age who also have children strongly believe it is an option that is as worthwhile as staying single.

I wanted to respond to Judith because her article was written in response to an article I wrote from SMH on 27 December.

I have also written extensively about the need for a new approach to the sterotypes of parenting that are used as arguements against having children. Portraying family life as a conservative, patriarchal and depressing scenario. Family is as diverse as any other aspect of our culture, and simply claiming it ties women to the kitchen is a worn out and incorrect cliche.

I am not doing what other people tell me to do. I am pursuing a life that is commited to family that has grounded me in community in a way I had previously not experienced. In fact, most people questioned why my partner and I were going to have a baby and not an abortion as we were so young when we decided to have children.

I apprecaite your engagement, but would prefer you stuck with the argument, rather than reverting to personal attacks on someone's life of which you know very little.

cheers,

Posted by Daniel Donahoo, Thursday, 13 January 2005 9:37:19 AM
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Daniel I would like to appologise for being so filled with vitriol - I didn't mean to attack you as an individual.

It's just a touchy issue when as a childfree woman, I rarely see having children presented as a 'decision' so much as an inevitability. Remember - about 50% of children are unintended! Nice decision making skills......

Now that I understand what you are saying I can only conclude that you don't realise what a minority you are to actively enjoy parenting, most parents are disinterested at best (particularly fathers). Family life has been portrayed as conservative, patriarchal and depressing because for the bulk of people doing it - it is.
If enjoying parenting is a minority response, don't you think it should follow that parents should be a minority group...? Saying that raising kids isn't much fun isn't putting a negative spin on things, it's letting people know what they are in for! I don't see that 'tricking' people (particularly those in their 20's) into thinking they are necessarily going to be happy with kids will change the fact that most aren't. And there's a difference between 'enjoying' and 'enduring', as my mother did.

Remember in relation to this that we have almost 30% of women in this country who will never reproduce and a hell of a lot of fathers who couldn't tell you their childrens middle names.

Don't you think it's better to be honest about parenting before the fact than to rose-tint it and end up with a whole lot of people whining that "It's so HAAAARRRD to be a parent!" ; ) The main problem with it all is that there is no getting rid of the child once it's born, so when people find it's not all it's cracked up to be (it really ISN'T different when it's your own...!), unfortunately they can't return the baby. Better to err on the side of caution than the side of abandoned, abused and neglected children.

The other thing is that I originally came to this site because of your article in the SMH.... I have only NOW understood what you meant as the article reads like you are scornful of people not choosing a traditional life, more or less saying that without the ol' ball and chain you are not responsible or a grown up. In part I was not in a good frame of mind to begin as i seriously doubt the opposite viewpoint (ie: if I were to write an article which seemed to be saying all parents are clueless, or that parenting is a poor choice) would get printed...even in between the want ads and the retractions.

The way I see it, the world is geared toward encouraging children ($3000/child breeder bonus coming out of my taxes for a start!) without actually considering whether that is the best choice, or whether it would add to the quality of life of the parents. I would really like to see more parents who enjoy it - that's why we have to recognise that the de-mystification, not the demonisation of traditional family life is responsible for people shying away.
I don't care how many subcultures there are, a baby still cries, it still shits itself whether you're soaking it up with cloth or plastic nappies, it still is time consuming and inconvenient, it still destroys a woman's body. These are things which don't change no matter how society portays parenting and these are the things people are rejecting.

You can't be upset about people making an informed choice.
Posted by Newsroo, Thursday, 13 January 2005 1:44:14 PM
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Well said.

I am not upset about people making informed chices. But, I will continue to bat for parenting because I enjoy it, because I belive it is worthwhile.

I agree many parents may find parenting a chore, none of us really can understand what it does top your life until you are there. Some, like yourself, probably put in a bit more thought than others.

I don't shy away from my SMH article. You only get so many words, so sometimes you can not flesh out the issue and must get straight to the point...and those points tend to be pointy. There are also a growing number of women who are getting to their late 30s and realising that they may have wanted children (read anything by Leslie Cannold - she is on this site)I wrote the article to present a view that young man have more options than they generally consider.

To throw the blame for fertility at the feet of women is letting men of the hook.

I am all for better parents and enjoyable parenting. I have managed to do it, and others can. It means letting go of things and changing our perspectives of work and identity.

And, there lies the problem. People are not making informed choices.
Posted by Daniel Donahoo, Thursday, 13 January 2005 3:00:47 PM
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You know - it's great to see that two people on the opposite side of what seems such a 'black and white' issue can have an intelligent debate with minimum personal attacks (all my fault - sorry again!).

Keep doing what you're doing, you're doing a great job!
...maybe you could write a book suggesting how others can avoid the pitfalls of materialistic, patriarchal parenting?...

Good luck!

Posted by Newsroo, Thursday, 13 January 2005 4:47:37 PM
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Judith,

"Family life has been portrayed as conservative, patriarchal and depressing because for the bulk of people doing it - it is."

I'm amazed you have such well-formed views on the experience of parenting... especially for a woman who is not a parent. I think you might possibly find that while parents do work particularly hard at raising their children, the journey is rich and rewarding, and the general consensus across a very broad range of parents I know is that we're not all miserable creatures lamenting the choices we've made.

In fact, I believe that having had the experience of being single and childless and happily pusuing a responsibility-free consumerist lifestyle, and then a parent, I am probably better qualified at assessing the differences between the two 'lifestyle choices' than you are. The truth be known, my experience of the former was fun, but for the most part, a hollow, spiritless way to live, and the latter has given me more truth, love, fun and understanding than I ever believed possible.

In this forum, I find your comments quite bitchy and aggressive, and I'm disappointed that you resort to such personal attacks and gross generalisations on something of which you have very little experience.

Parenting *is* hard. Having kids is not for everyone. In fact, if you dislike the idea of parenthood that much, the most responsible decision you could make is to remain childless. And on that point, we agree. But don't bag parents you don't know, with lives you know little-to-nothing about, to promote a lifestyle in which your decision-making skills appear yet to be seriously tested.

Loc
Posted by Tania, Saturday, 15 January 2005 7:21:55 PM
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Please note, the above comment should have been addressed to Newsroo, not Judith.
Posted by Tania, Saturday, 15 January 2005 7:31:30 PM
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Newsroo, just a few comments regards some issues.

“most parents are disinterested at best (particularly fathers).” –no reliable study has every found that most fathers are disinterested.

“Family life has been portrayed as conservative, patriarchal and depressing because for the bulk of people doing it - it is.” - work in Australia by Dr Sotirios Sarantakos basically showed that about 25% of families were patriachial, 25% were matriachial, and 50% were democratic, which means that about 75% of families were either controlled by the mother or the mother had equal say. Also the lowest rates of depression or mental ill-health occur in traditional 2 parent families.

“a hell of a lot of fathers who couldn't tell you their childrens middle names.” - no reliable study has ever found this to be true. It is a myth that was first perpetrated by the current Sex Discrimination Commissioner.
Posted by Timkins, Sunday, 16 January 2005 1:53:48 PM
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Interesting Tim...I actually thought I made that one up (the middle names thing) but interesting that it was already in common useage!

I don't think it's fair to say that you need to experience parenting to decide how you feel about it - after all that would mean a hell of a high rate of infanticide as we saw in Romania under Ceaucescu. Surprisingly though, it is a common attitude that when deciding whether to have kids, "why don't you have one and see?". DOCTORS have said this (when I fought for and sucessfully got a tubal ligation to ensure I won't have any nasty surprises)...the stupidity of this statement just astounds me...I was speechless, like... "Pfffftttt!!! What??" ...I don't need to be a heroin addict to know it's not the life for me...and it's easier to get off heroin than get rid of your kids!

I'm not denying it is the life for some people - and I don't deny that for some people, it is life enriching - but i don't think it's nearly as many as you think. People almost *can't* be honest about that stuff - it's generally not well received when you say you regret your offspring...

My point is - it's not the ONLY way to be fulfilled as a human being as it is so often portrayed
Posted by Newsroo, Thursday, 20 January 2005 9:18:52 AM
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Newsroo,

You don't have to have children to decide how you feel about parenting; but you can't comment on what parenting actually feels like unless you have had children, ie. your comments that it's a generally mind-numbing, miserable experience. Likewise, you're not necessarily going to understand parents' comments about parenting if you're not a parent. It's one of those things, like labour and childbirth, that is impossible to fully comprehend until you've actually been there.

By the way, on your experience of your doctor and his/her comments on tubal ligation: I found that among the Western medical professionals I have encountered, their attitude was that women really don't know their bodies as well as the medical profession do. So it appears to be on both sides of the baby fence.

And just as much as you say people almost can't be honest about how they feel about having had children, I guess the same could be said about women who haven't had children, and are unlikely to: you're very unlikely to hear many childless women who are past their reproductive period say they really wished they had had children. That's almost a taboo, too. But that's not to say there aren't many intelligent, childless women who are completely fulfilled - I'm know there are. Having children is certainly not the only way to find fulfilment as a human being.

My objection to the groundswell against having children (and I really feel it is a groundswell) is that consumerism is touted as the mainstream alternative. That if we only just consume to construct our chosen identity, we will find fulfilment; that there's no need to engage with other human beings on a deeper level. And for many people, it is definitely not the fulfilment that having children may be. I feel that attitude is offensive to human beings as social and spiritual beings.

Discouraging people from having children by inferring it is an 'unsatisfactory life choice' is as irresponsible as pushing people to reproduce. There are as many miserable people with children as there are people without: my thesis is that something deeper than the 'child factor' is responsible. So what's really going on here?

For as much as there is social pressure TO have children, there is a very strong social pressure to NOT have children. When I found myself pregnant, unexpectedly, and decided to keep my baby, not one of my friends supported me in my decision. As a result, I have not one friend left from the period of my life around my late teens to late twenties. Actually, that 'life change' has been a harder one to swallow than the transition to parenthood. I know that had I chosen a termination, things would have been very different. In some social circles, people are more willing to commit to supporting termination than having a baby. To commit to someone, as a friend, who is having a baby, requires a change in mindset, priorities and timeframe. A woman who has a baby is generally not back drinking at the pub with her mates within six weeks. Strong social pressure not to have children? I think so.

Perhaps we need to shift our focus from 'children or no children' to 'what do I have to offer my community and my world' and make life decisions from there. In the final analysis, isn't that what it's really about?

Loc
Posted by Tania, Thursday, 20 January 2005 10:17:45 AM
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Dear Loc,

It's so easy to get hot under the collar with this issue - I think you and I have done well to keep it 'light'!

"You don't have to have children to decide how you feel about parenting; but you can't comment on what parenting actually feels like unless you have had children"
Fair Cop in a way - I certainly can never know what it is like for someone who wants kids!! Just for the record though - before I finally convinced that guardian angel of a Dr that a tubal really was what I wanted, I was extremely messed up by an unexpected pg which I discovered in it's 5th month...too late she cried!
And so I *do* have half the requirement. I found I have never felt less like a human and more like a faceless incubator than at that time. Of course I can't talk from experience of actually raising the child as it was adopted out immediately, but I feel it's fair to form an opinion from observations.
My first and most influential one was my own family - a father who made no secret of his constant affairs and a strong mother who made a strong choice - her happiness or ours. Of course it was our happiness over hers, that is what motherhood means, that's why it appears 'miserable' to me.

"By the way, on your experience of your doctor and his/her comments on tubal ligation: I found that among the Western medical professionals I have encountered, their attitude was that women really don't know their bodies as well as the medical profession do. So it appears to be on both sides of the baby fence."

I'm not denying that most western doctors think they are gods who know everything - but think of it this way - if I wanted a baby at 16 there's not a Dr who would councel for RU48. I might cop some societal pressure but no-one would deny that I knew my self well enough to decide for myself ...I was 23 when I first enquired about sterilisation and after a years waiting period and an interview with my MOTHER he finally agreed to do it. And I'm one of the lucky few who have managed to get this procedure done without any children at home. Another example of this crazyness is that a male asking for permanent sterilisation will be granted it almost immediately with a minimum of insults about knowing what he wants out of his life. Why? Because they are assuming that ALL women want children and will have them one day.

"And just as much as you say people almost can't be honest about how they feel about having had children, I guess the same could be said about women who haven't had children, and are unlikely to: you're very unlikely to hear many childless women who are past their reproductive period say they really wished they had had children."
You're right again... I actually lament this fact as well - I have found it needs to be the right crowd to be honest... because many of the childed are so damn sure I'll change my mind, I don't have the luxury of showing any cracks in my facade. Touche!

"My objection to the groundswell against having children (and I really feel it is a groundswell) is that consumerism is touted as the mainstream alternative. That if we only just consume to construct our chosen identity, we will find fulfilment; that there's no need to engage with other human beings on a deeper level. And for many people, it is definitely not the fulfilment that having children may be. I feel that attitude is offensive to human beings as social and spiritual beings."

This is where we disagree....consumerism among the childfree IS promoted by the mainstream media but it is a myth. Families are actually MUCH bigger consumers than individuals.... but it's safer to think that people who don't want children are selfish, doesn't challenge the dominant ideology.

Discouraging people from having children by inferring it is an 'unsatisfactory life choice' is as irresponsible as pushing people to reproduce.

Ah but is it...? Surely the default being NOT screwing up another life, NOT burdening the planet further etc has got to be more responsible. I don't really believe in reactionary politics but with the Government seeing fit to use $3000 (soon to increase) per child NOT MEANS TESTED of my money (taxes) to support other people's life choices, well.... I just think it's better to be really SURE you want kids before you have them - wouldn't the world be a better place if every child was wanted...?

"When I found myself pregnant, unexpectedly, and decided to keep my baby, not one of my friends supported me in my decision. As a result, I have not one friend left from the period of my life around my late teens to late twenties. Actually, that 'life change' has been a harder one to swallow than the transition to parenthood. I know that had I chosen a termination, things would have been very different. In some social circles, people are more willing to commit to supporting termination than having a baby. To commit to someone, as a friend, who is having a baby, requires a change in mindset, priorities and timeframe. A woman who has a baby is generally not back drinking at the pub with her mates within six weeks. Strong social pressure not to have children? I think so."
I feel very bad that you're friends did that - but consider, were they really friends? Even me - with my rabid childfree-ism - have and will support friends through a pregnancy. Once the decision has been made, turning away from someone because they didn't take your advice is crap.
The only other thing I could say is that sometimes when someone is being more supportive of abortion than keeping the baby is that there's a tendency of women to say "I'm having this baby - no matter what!" ...even if the 'what' in question turns out to be someone else supports the baby, another person (usually grandma) looks after the baby ...do you see what I mean? It's not really one persons decision when they expect the rest of the world to care for it. Of course not saying this is your case, just that I do think people have a right to hold an opinion about someone elses decision, particularly when it directly effect them.

"Perhaps we need to shift our focus from 'children or no children' to 'what do I have to offer my community and my world' and make life decisions from there. In the final analysis, isn't that what it's really about?"

...You really hit the nail on the head there! I would just like to see some study done into why it is people (especially it seems - men) seem to think that women all want to be mothers. You'll say "of course they don't - no-ones saying they do!" ....but it is said every day, in a million different ways.
Posted by Newsroo, Thursday, 20 January 2005 4:35:33 PM
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Dear Newsroo,

What a crap fertility experience! I am so lucky to have never gone through something like that. But, just for the record, whether you are happy about a pregnancy or not, it appears that feeling like a 'faceless incubator' is the order of the day when you enter ... "the medical model". I had an obstetrician who told me that even though I had the date of conception of my second child completely certain, that I must not be remembering correctly because his ultrasound disagreed with me. (Turned out *my* dates were right... ha!) Anyhow, that your mother had to be interviewed to qualify you for your tubal at your age 24 is particularly screwed. Really, it seems like a liability issue. No-one wants to be sued for that sort of thing.

The attitude that all women want children is just wrong, and to not treat choosing to be childfree as a valid option for any women just so obviously needs to change. But it's also very wrong for young women to be told brainwashed into thinking that having children is just a waste of a good life.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the 'do families or singles consume more' issue. It depends on the life cycle stage of the individual or the family, and what you define as a consumer durable. Though I do agree that society does view people who don't want children as selfish, which seems stupid, because there are just as many selfish people with children.

And if we use the default global position for someone not having children, you're right, then, that it isn't as irresponsible to discourage people from having children as is it is to push people to reproduce. But on a personal level, both actions can completely devastate a woman if she were to be coerced into making that decision.

Don't feel bad that my friends left me in the lurch. I feel they were really friends for that time of my life, but just very selfish people, and not the kind of friends I thought they were. Perhaps I was a very selfish person too. That'll learn me for hanging out in the world of advertising... I don't think they did it because I didn't take their advice - more that I was no use to them any more. It was all part of the journey, turns out.

"..just that I do think people have a right to hold an opinion about someone elses decision, particularly when it directly effect them." Yes. Absolutely. The Baby Bonus is crap. Foisting your offspring onto others and not taking personal responsibility for your actions (and your children) is crap. As is being a crap parent and not seeking help for your parenting skills.

But I'd have to say, Newsroo, that if you asked your mother whether it was a miserable experience to watch you grow up, I can't believe she'd answer yes to that - and not just because it's taboo.

Cheers,
Loc
Posted by Tania, Thursday, 20 January 2005 10:49:36 PM
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Dear Loc,

Of course - when Mum says that if she had her time again she wouldn't have married and had kids, it's from a strong understanding that she loves us very much and is glad we're here.

I do understand the litigation thing - and that I am lucky to have got it done at all and I am thankful. But that's just exactly the point - if they didn't assume that every woman wants to or will have a child, there wouldn't be such a fear of litigation. BTW - I told him at the first interview that I was happy to get a solicitor and sign what ever I had to to say that in the event I changed my mind, he wasn't at fault...

It's a long legacy of Medical Science (which has been far from scientific for most of its' history!). They only discovered in the 1900's that it was best to wash your hands between patients, something midwives have always done! ...but you can't tell men anything can you?.... (tongue in cheek...)

I really think this is just a bump in the road... when you think about the massive changes we've seen in our lifetimes (I'm turning 30 this year) not only in technology (microwaves, mobile phones, DVD's, CD's - these things did not exist when i was growing up) but the social changes (increased equality between the sexes, changes to labour laws accross the board not to mention demographic changes) it's little wonder there's going to be a bit of a lag in attitudes.

The one thing I wonder is - is this 'fertility strike' reaction based or is it actually a natural state which only now has been allowed to show itself because of social conditions.
In other words, are women having less/no children because they have been influenced against it or simply because now more than ever before they have other options...?
So, if women were financially independant, equally regarded in the workplace and in charge of their contraception like they are now back in the 50's, would we see the same result? Would we see up to 30% of women choosing not to have kids?

It would be really hard to tell, eh? But to me - this is the question. It's no use making social policy to address what's preventing women having children when the thing preventing it is their own choice.

The hardest part about it is, when there's a general assumption that ALL women want to have kids they won't even ask the question.
Posted by Newsroo, Friday, 21 January 2005 11:31:36 AM
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Dear Newsroo,

It's hard to say what the decrease in fertility rate in our society is based on. Probably a combination of the factors you mentioned.

Also, for my part, I feel it also must be mentioned that consumerism has created 'identities' as alternatives to the wife/mother identity which has dominated womens' choices for so long. So it's no longer necessary for women to be confined to the roles of wife, mother or spinster - or men to be confined to father/non-father.

Also, consumerism tends to be very big on 'freedom'; not liberty, but this amorphous concept whereby an absence of commitment = freedom. However, our emotional wellbeing actually requires some form of commitment for spiritual and cultural capital. So many men and women choose not to have children because it entails "un-freedom" and it doesn't fit their fixed consumer 'image' or 'identity' - which is a pretty hollow method for making major life decisions, and one which has the potential for major repercussions down the line.

Still, I feel it's important to say again that it's not totally implausible to suggest that many women still have children because they actually *want* to - and that even given the choices of an expansive career, some variable consumer identity package, or any other option, nurturing a growing life and devoting your waking (and sleeping) hours to another person's welfare can be a very fulfilling pursuit, and definitely not the worst thing that could happen to your life.

Possibly if conditions were different in the 50s we may see many women choosing not to have children - but is that because it is 'right', or because we are progressively being socially conditioned to believe that devoting life to children is 'a waste'? Remember it is only a recent phenomenon that children have become an economic 'burden' rather than an economic 'asset'. And when our society is structured around the importance of the almighty dollar, you can see where another deterrent for having children comes from. Another reason Howard's ('I'll pay you for your bubba according to what the mama is worth') $3000 fertility promise was so well received (in some quarters). Suffice it to say, it's a far from simple argument.

For me the issue is not so much whether women are having children or not, it is whether we are able to sustain other social and familial relationships to maintain our community's emotional health. I don't give a crap whether women choose to have kids or not, that's a personal decision. I just hope that people to make these decisions fully informed, not on the basis of another's ego or current trends (because trends change). I also hope that our society can maintain the importance of human relationships - kids or no kids. And let's treat each other's personal life decisions with a bit of respect.

So, thankyou for sharing your story with me.

Loc
Posted by Tania, Tuesday, 25 January 2005 11:08:32 AM
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