Enaj,

Thankyou for your unsubstantiated assumptions (Eg “the women in your life have hurt you”). Is making unsubstantiated assumptions about someone an important part of feminism? What unsubstantiated assumptions would you like to be made about you?

You have just said that feminism is about equality. Unfortunately many people talk about such things as “equality”, “freedom”, “liberty” etc. Just turn to Fox news.

What's so special about “feminism. and why should I believe a “feminist” when they talk about “equality”, and not someone else when they talk about “equality”. I really need a detailed set of “feminist” policies, not rhetoric or propaganda (as there is enough of that already in the world).

Re: books by the feminists you have mentioned. I have read works by some of these authors, and thought that they had all the elements of distortion, deceit, and duplicity (similar to the wonderful role-model for young people, Dr Susan Maushart)

Eg
“Friedan worked 9 hours a day – declaring that being a wife and mother was “not going to interfere with what I regarded as my real life.” Not surprisingly, Friedan’s three children had to undergo therapy to deal with what was called “the emotional fallout.””

Steinem famously declared that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. She remained single until her 60s –– when she recently married a divorced man with grown children.
http://www.worldcongress.org/wcf3_spkrs/wcf3_crouse.htm

Wolf:- She makes a dangerous extrapolation from the personal to the political—but the personal undermines the cause that is the pretext for writing the piece in the first place. http://slate.msn.com/id/2096152/

Basically I need a much more in-depth definition of feminism (as “equality” has been too misused in the past, to the misfortune of many, many people), and some detailed feminist policies.

I’ve seen too many tricksters, hypocrites and fraudsters hiding behind the term of “feminism” (eg Maushart, Greer) to unquestionably accept the term of “feminism”, without a very detailed explanation of what it is, and what it wants.

Also a list of “feminist” groups I can join (or can’t join, if I am a male).

Timkins

What part of feminism is the belief in equal rights for women and men don't you understand?

I know you want neat little boxes, neat little stats and a hyperlink or two hundred, but really get it through your head - women are as a diverse a group as are men. Therefore, apart from the basic premise of equal rights we diverge into a variety of opinions from there.

Please give me examples of "male" politicians and "male" type politics. Now that should keep you very busy as that encompasses a pretty broad spectrum as does "female" politics - if there is even such a thing.

What affects women, affects men, ergot politics applies to us all. A healthy society values ALL its members and doesn't discriminate according to sex, religion, race, colour etc etc etc....

You are being deliberately provocative - I know you are not that stupid that you do not understand what equal rights for all people means.

What are you hoping to achieve by this deliberate form of ignorance?

Many feminists define themselves as advocates for "equal rights for women and men". Examples include equity in

- Pay: equality of earned income, in bottom line dollars, regardless of factors such as hours worked, job choices, etc.

- Careers: equal numbers of male & female engineers, computer scientists, doctors, lawyers, etc

I wonder, though, how many of the following numbers you think should be equal "regardless of other factors":

- health care research money (ex prostate vs breast cancers)
- life expectancy
- child custody statistics
- suicide rates
- victims of violent crime
- graduation of high school, university
- genital mutilation

Say whatever else you will, but can you name ONE of these, or any other injustice men/boys experience, that would be acceptable (because these certainly are) if the statistics were reversed?

health care research -

Until recently, almost all health care research was on men, then assumed to include women. Heart disease researchers are only now beginning to understand why women react differently to treatment than men. Both sexes have been treated unfairly by medicos, but I think if you went back through history ( a significant name in itself) you'd find women have had the rougher end of the stick. However, I do not defend less money for prostrate cancer research. Get out there, guys, and start raising some. Where do I send my cheque?

Life expectancy - women used not to live longer than men due to death in childbirth, since childbirth has become safer, they live longer. What should we do, make it more dangerous?

Child custody - when my husband and I had kids, I stayed home for 5 years as a full time mum, then I returned to work part-time, which I am still doing. He works long days and travels a lot. If we parted (heaven forbid) I would expect to continue to do the major careing for my kids.

suicide rates - more women attempt suicide, more men succeed. Misery seems to effect both sexes equally, its just women choose drugs to kill themselves which are less violent, but less effective.

victims of violent crime - its true, but men are also far more likely to be the perpetrators of such crime, so perhaps the two are connected.

grad. high school/uni - women do better in education, but they don't do so well afterwards, with men represented overwhelmingly in richest lists, most powerful and influential lists etc, which may indicate prejudice against highly educated women.

genital mutilation - there you lose me. Millions of women have their genitals appallingly mutilated in Africa at age of 6 annually (usually with a stone or razor and no anasthesia), mutilated to the extent that a small hole is left for urination, the life long misery health and childbirth consequences of this ghastly practice are horrendous. If you're comparing this with the removal of the foreskin, I'm gobsmacked.

Pearlmartin- re equal pay- I doubt many women and/or feminists would suggest absolute pay equality without equality of time/effort when equal jobs are being performed.

What I find interesting about the lower rates of women's pay is the tradional under-valuation of the areas of employment dominated by women. For example, although rates of pay have gone up significantly in recent years, most of the 'caring' professions, such as teaching and nursing, which are dominated by women, tend to be under-valued in terms of pay-for-hours (and by that I mean ACTUAL hours, not the nine-to-three many people percieve teaching to be). The professions dominated by women also tend to be of lower social status, often quite inexplicably when the training and importance of their role in society is considered.

I believe the general lower status of these 'female' professions has its roots in the lower legal and social status of women that existed for many many years, where anything considered 'women's work' was devalued and considered insiginficant.

This devaluing is why many feminists continue to focus on the pay differential as a signal that while we, as a society, have come a long way in achieving greater equality of opportunity for men and women, there is still a way to go.

Trinity,Enaj, Laurie

Still no definition of feminism, or a list of feminist policies. If “feminists” are so diverse, then the term “feminist” has no real meaning. Feminists should just call themselves “people”.

But hearing a feminist talk about “equality”, is like hearing a feminist talk about a “woman and her children”. So for me to fully embrace the world of “feminism”, I would need an in-depth definition of “feminism”, and also a detailed list of feminist policies (or wants).

Otherwise the situation could be:-
Feminism:- Something that is used whenever it suits.
Progressivism :- Something that is used within feminism.

Pearlmartin,
To add to the list,
-the amount of government money being spent on women as compared to men,
-the number of women only, women’s organisations being subsidised by the government,
-the major difference in the avg retirement ages between men and women,
-the major difference in the sentencing of males and females for the same offence,
-the amount of male vilification and male demonisation being carried out by persons attached to Universities (eg Dr Susan Maushart).