Trinity,
You have just carried out a much used feminist technique.

You have used anecdotal evidence and personal experience, and suggested that it is representative of a whole. This has been found almost universally throughout feminism.

Eg 'What's wrong with using personal experience?' Well, the answer is, almost everything. The problem with such personal anecdote is that it cannot be used in any rational or meaningful way for evaluating marraige in our society. Many of Maushart's claims are quite false and dangerously misleading.” http://www.ipa.org.au/files/news_479.html

After studying much feminist text and feminist university courses, a Christine Stolba found much the same: “In the end, all Women’s Studies has done is "engage in much myth-making; unfortunately, myth-making is not scholarship. As its textbooks demonstrate, the field of Women’s Studies has turned ‘rooms of their own’ into narrow intellectual prisons presided over by matriarchs of mediocrity who mistake ideology for learning and scholarship." http://www.iwf.org/ARTICLES/article_detail.asp?ArticleID=68

Anecdote and personal experience also fills women’s media, but that media is probably some of the most unreliable media to be found.

So a part of the process for feminism to become more objective and truthful (and more believable) is for women and feminists to vastly reduce the amount of anecdotal evidence they use.

No one can adequately talk about democracy, equality etc, but base what they are saying on so much anecdotal evidence only.

Timkins

I was politely responding to a question raised by Reason. I have given up on you and your selective igorance. You are your own mushroom.

TRINITY.....ur backsliding mate.. where did that love go ? :)

Now.. you will all enjoy this.. Last night in the supermarket there was a couple in front of me in the checkout line. The man was relating an experience he observed about a woman who went to a Ford dealership somewhere, asking for a test drive. The salesman said to her "Go get your husband, and then he can take you for one" wooooooooo.... how old was this salesman ? was he a dinsaur from the 50s ? nope.. he was in his 20s :) Of course she stormed out and went to the next nearest dealer where she was treated with courtesy, given a test drive and bought a car.

I had a good chat with 3 generations of women in my fellowship yesterday, I reported the result to Xena in the thread about Mrs Bishop and the Cloth for those interested.

One thing I feel is worthy of repeating here though, the feeling about 'Male responsibility' for leadership in the home, was not something that made anyone feel 'repressed'. (I never asked the 14 yr old who wanted to play soccer with the guys this question, I'll try again next week :)

We are all 'under God' and when men do their role as per the good book, women also enjoy their role. Complimentary, not competitive. When either side becomes lazy or over reliant or selfish, things fall apart. But they would do that no matter what 'system' is in place.

The most memorable discovery I've made in this debate is the connection between 'radical feminists' and abusive male role models.
Which leads me back to my above stated position on the biblical pattern.

Its not a 'mans' world...its God's world.

Trinity,
Thankyou for calling me yet another maligning name (ie “mushroom”). There is now a considerable list of names you have called other people, and you must be very kind, in a feminist type of way.

I have found the most minimal evidence to say that the following are not completely characteristic of feminism.

1/ State that all people should call themselves “feminist”.

2/ If asked questions about feminism:-
- State that feminism is “progressive”, and means “equality” and “democracy”, but provide no elaboration, specific details or feminist policies.
- Immediately attempt to silence anyone who asks questions about feminism, (eg. call them maligning names, state that they are trying to “send women back to the 1950’s” etc).

3/ Portray women as being perpetually oppressed:-
- Always portray women as being forever victims of men.
- Attempt to use anecdotal evidence only, and infer that it is always representative of the whole.
- If anecdotal evidence cannot be used, then carry out advocacy research, and use biased data.
- Make repetitive use of propaganda terms (eg “women’s liberation”, “female oppression” etc)
- Encourage feminists to malign and demonise males and then excuse those feminists as being “extremist” or “satirist” feminists, but never specify which feminists are not considered to be “extremists” or “satirists”.
- Never consider any situation where males may be discriminated against in some way (ie this is a crime against feminism).

4/ If asked to provide a solution to a problem.
- Immediately launch into mantra (eg repeat continuously “women’s choice”, “a woman and her children”, “patriarchal power structure” etc)
- Demonise males and portray females as being perpetually oppressed
- Call for more government spending (normally on women)

5/ Go back to 1, and repeat the loop endlessly:-
- In this way, more and more money and privileges will be given to women and anyone who calls themselves a feminist, and minimal money and privileges will be given to men or anyone who does not call themselves a feminist.

Timkins (Trinity)

there is one point which I think deserves serious consideration which Trinity raised.

Loans, (and test drives for that matter) etc.. access to legal/financial services.

I have a feeling that the denial or the hesitant provision of these things, (by males) maybe due to applying the kind of picture I've been painting regarding the roles and relative authority positions in marraige to the wider community.

So it would be in order, to stress that this should not be the case, and more, should be avoided at all costs, as a social outcome and that teaching against such a state of affairs should be a companion part of teaching the Biblical approach to roles and responsibility(within marraige).

I hope I have not been interpreted as suggesting that just because I advocate the biblical pattern of 'Christ the head of the man, who is the head of the woman (in marraige)' as meaning "Women are incapable of equally responsible approaches to managing their affairs etc."

I certainly can see how this might come about, specially if the Church was a much larger part of community life than it currently is.
So, obviously, we need to guard against such a limited understanding of females abilities.

I see a very strong correlation between the emergence of feminism, and the failure of males to be what we should be under God. So, it becomes increasingly important to use education as a tool in proper socialization to counter this.

Well Said BD, you do a great job in failing to cloke your intent. But I must agree with your statement.

“I see a very strong correlation between the emergence of feminism, and the failure of males to be what we should be under God. So, it becomes increasingly important to use education as a tool in proper socialization to counter this.”

“and the failure of males to be what we should be under God.”

That would relate to being trapped, indoctrinated, elitist, self righteous, fearing change and difference and reliance on antiquated mythology to forgive you for your being.

“So, it becomes increasingly important to use education as a tool in proper socialization to counter this.”

Very True, we must use the education system to ensure that people understand how trapped they can become when religion is presented to them.

Spot on BD, is that just a taint of creeping americanism in “socialization”, (just checking).

Timkins, nice you got the joke, “5/ Go back to 1, and repeat the loop endlessly:- “

Cobber, I like many agree with what you say, the evidence is clear. I have always disliked feminism or any ism that wishes to control. We all have had our fair share of being ripped of by the ones we love. But cobber, it can make you stronger and more determined to find that elusive equality. It doesn't make it right, just that it is. If you can't change and go on searching for the equality we all seek, ( well lots of us) then sadness may be the only outcome.

For all we know, this life is all we have, so why stay stuck groveling within the past, when we can be out there searching for the equality future that will satisfy us.

It is so nice, comfortable, satisfying, a great learning and development period, when you find it. Thats if it lasts, eh.