Dear John,

First to get this out of the way:
«Modern justice isn’t medieval vengeance.»
I never said that: modern justice is mediocre and unwise, but only its retribution element is medieval vengeance.

Now, you are perfectly correct in stating that
«cosmic corrections haven’t been enough to manage fairness or safety in daily life»
- One more important step is necessary, which I inadvertently omitted:
To gain safety, it is not enough to have faith in "cosmic corrections", but one must also act accordingly, be kind to all and refrain from violence, then wait patiently as the bitter fruits of their former wrong deeds gradually drain out and come out of the system.

It's like, one could have full faith in gravity, but if they still walk over the edge of their roof, then they will fall and break their bones.

Sorry for this omission and hopefully this removes our misunderstandings.

Now, when people have done bad things and are not yet ready to face the music, they will devise all sorts of tricks to postpone what's coming back at them, and a human-based justice-system is one such trick, which could even work for a while in giving them some relative safety... but at what cost - because in the course of applying their artificial justice system, they will create fresh violence and will later have to pay for that too!

For someone who has done nothing wrong, no unpleasant surprises could come - they are safe already, they don't need an extra justice system: there may still be criminals around, but they won't approach them. Same for the wise who did a few wrong things in the past but are now ready to face the music and atone, receive what's unpleasant gracefully and be done with it forever.

«Modern societies are built on shared contracts»

Modern societies (and practically any such large societies) are built on coercion. No such imaginary contracts ever existed.

«Proportionate safety rules and laws exist to manage systemic costs and protect shared resources»

Defending ambitious projects is different from self-defence, thus cannot justify violence.

You’re splitting hairs here, Yuyutsu:

//I never said that [modern justice is medieval vengeance]//

My point wasn’t that you called all of modern justice “medieval vengeance” - and I'm confident that that was pretty clear - but that you mischaracterise it by focusing only on retribution. Deterrence, protection, and fairness are essential parts of justice that you keep dismissing as “mediocre and unwise” without offering a functional alternative.

//Cosmic corrections haven’t been enough… one more step is necessary: perfect non-violence and patience…//

This isn’t a “misunderstanding,” it’s a goalpost shift.

Earlier, you claimed karma works automatically for everyone like gravity. Now, you say it only works if someone achieves perfect non-violence and has no remaining “bitter fruits” of past actions. That’s not gravity-like at all; it’s conditional and clearly doesn’t apply to real human societies.

//A human justice system is a trick to postpone karma… it creates fresh violence…//

If cosmic justice truly protected the virtuous and deterred wrongdoers, we’d expect karmic societies to need fewer laws and courts. In reality, they’ve had just as many, sometimes more. That fact remains unanswered.

//For someone who has done nothing wrong… no unpleasant surprises… criminals won’t approach them…//

This is an untestable spiritual claim that doesn’t reflect observable reality. Innocent people are harmed every day in every society. Public policy can’t rely on mystical assurances that criminals will “not approach” the virtuous, it has to manage tangible risks for everyone.

//Modern societies are built on coercion… no contracts exist…//

Constitutions, tax systems, public health frameworks, and pooled insurance are social contracts. They’re codified, debated, and enforced in every modern state. Dismissing them as imaginary doesn’t change the fact that they exist and that they require enforceable rules to function.

//Proportionate safety rules can’t justify violence…//

Proportionate enforcement of safety laws isn’t “violence.” It’s collective self-protection in systems where individual choices create shared costs. That’s exactly why every functioning society - including deeply spiritual ones - has courts, laws, and enforcement alongside any belief in divine justice.

Dear John,

«you mischaracterise it by focusing only on retribution»

Specifically In response to your enumeration of the goals of "modern justice".

«you keep dismissing as “mediocre and unwise” without offering a functional alternative.»

I offered not one, but two:

1) Do nothing. God will take care of justice anyway, perfectly without fail.
2) If you are not up to it, then at least limit your system to self-defence, strictly so, and be ruthlessly honest as to what is the minimum required to protect yourself and your loved ones from harm versus what is aimed at protecting other things, including rigid and insensitive structures you constructed over the years and self-invented contracts.

«it’s a goalpost shift.»

It was an omission on my behalf, I took it for granted and forgot to put in writing, especially given my attempt to fit everything in 4x350-word blocks a day (which I indeed exceeded on Friday).

«Earlier, you claimed karma works automatically for everyone like gravity.»

Newton never claimed that if you acknowledge the law of gravity, you will never fall. For that, you must acknowledge the law of gravity AND therefore abstain from walking over the edge of your roof.

If you watched the presentation by Swami Tadatmananda, he never claimed that anyone will be automatically protected without fulfilling their part of the deal.

«That’s not gravity-like at all; it’s conditional and clearly doesn’t apply to real human societies.»

Well of course, nor do all apples fall at once from their respective trees.
Gravity applies to individual apples and karma applies to individual souls.

«If cosmic justice truly protected the virtuous and deterred wrongdoers, we’d expect karmic societies to need fewer laws and courts.»

Cosmic justice indeed protects the virtuous.
Some wrongdoers are deterred, others not, and that is as should be: this planet was never designed to be heaven and had we been 100% virtuous ourselves, then we would never have reached here in the first place.

«Public policy can’t rely on mystical assurances»

It could, but people don't want to, because they are aware that they have not been completely innocent.

Neither is a workable system of justice though, Yuyutsu.

//I offered not one, but two alternatives…//

“Do nothing, God will handle it” isn’t governance, and “self-defence only” collapses everything societies need to function beyond individual households. Courts, laws, and enforcement emerged everywhere for a reason: real communities face conflicts and risks that don’t fit into your minimal self-defence box.

//It was an omission…//

Okay, but that’s still a shift. You originally said karma works like gravity for everyone. Now it only works if someone is perfectly non-violent and free of past “bitter fruits.” That’s not automatic, and it’s not universal.

//Gravity applies to apples, karma to souls…//

But every apple falls, regardless of belief or past mistakes. With karma, you’ve made it conditional and unverifiable. That’s why earthly justice systems are needed - they work predictably without relying on unseen moral purity.

//Cosmic justice protects the virtuous… this planet isn’t heaven…//

That concedes the point: karmic justice doesn’t actually ensure safety or fairness here on Earth. That’s exactly why karmic societies still had courts and laws - because cosmic protection wasn’t enough to manage real human risks.

//Public policy could rely on mystical assurances…//

Only if society were made of perfectly innocent beings. Since it’s not, policy can’t function on metaphysical guarantees. That’s why every real society, spiritual or secular, turned to human-administered justice alongside their beliefs.

Dear John,

«“Do nothing, God will handle it” isn’t governance»

It is governance, a perfect one, just not by humans.

(but I admit, "doing nothing" is not easy, hence the self-defence-only option)

«“self-defence only” collapses everything societies need to function beyond individual households.»

Whether or not this is the case, you provided no reason, not to speak of proof.

But suppose it is true, then you admit that for you, protecting ambitious projects is more important than respecting the freedom of others and not harming and hurting them.

The Romans would agree with you, that building their aqueducts and amphitheatres justified slavery, and accordingly, even the value of social entertainment justified the pain of gladiators.

«You originally said karma works like gravity for everyone»

It does, and just like gravity, the results are not always safe and pleasurable for all.

«Now it only works if someone is perfectly non-violent»

Karma also works proportionately: to the extent one is non-violent, to that extent after a while they will experience less violence.

«But every apple falls»

And reaches the ground a while after not being held up in place by another force.
Same for karma, once you stop resisting it by force, and you can only use that much force, for that long before becoming exhausted.

«karmic justice doesn’t actually ensure safety or fairness here on Earth.»

Isn't it just and fair that those inflicting [more] pain on others will suffer [more] and others not [or less]?

Safety on Earth? That's a dream, you reached the wrong planet, mate, no system of justice will give you that, the only constant on Earth is change. Accidents and crimes will keep happening, and throwing the culprit in jail cannot ease one's pain.

Public policies that aim to achieve complete safety, are misguided.
Public policies that attempt to achieve more safety through violence, just delay the pain, creating more violence and less safety overall.
Public policies that educate to reduce violence and trust God, on the other hand, can increase the level of safety.
Even then, you can only achieve relative safety in this world.

That’s not governance, Yuyutsu.

//“Do nothing, God will handle it” is perfect governance…//

It’s the absence of it.

Governance requires structures humans can rely on day to day. Saying “God will handle it” doesn’t resolve disputes, enforce contracts, or manage shared resources. That’s why even karmic societies built human justice systems - because they couldn’t function without them.

//Protecting ambitious projects is more important than freedom… like Roman slavery…//

Proportionate safety laws aren’t slavery. Equating seatbelt rules and courts to gladiator fights isn’t a serious comparison. Laws exist to manage real risks in shared systems, not to justify cruelty or conquest.

//Karma works like gravity… proportionate to non-violence…//

That’s still conditional, not universal. Every apple falls no matter what - it doesn’t fall only if it’s “virtuous.” Human justice works predictably for everyone, which is why societies can’t rely on unseen cosmic corrections.

//Safety on Earth is a dream… no system can give you that…//

If that’s true, why propose education or divine reliance to “increase safety”? That’s a policy choice, which means even you believe human action can change outcomes.

Real societies act on that principle every day through laws, courts, and enforcement, because waiting for cosmic perfection doesn’t solve practical problems.