All true. And our "fifth column" is the Australian Greens Party. Everything they do and say demonstrates that they want to ruin Australia. On the streets, in the Parliament, they demonstrate it non-stop. They are evil.

Exactly Graham. The only weapons those faecal throwing thugs object to are the ones used as defence against genocidal maniacs like Putin and Hamas. They are quite happy when such people can commit mass murder without hindrance.

Community Service for these hobby anarchists !

America and the UK nearly started a nuclear war last Saturday.
http://www.youtube.com/live/ifEN4Dt1WXs?t=2566

There can be no justification for the murder of 40,000 innocent men, women and children in Gaza. The author with his hard right belief in conspiracy theories, and his support of the American foreign policy of destabilisation and war, simply ignores the mass murder of tens of thousands, and is content to see the world driven towards total destruction.

Nearly one and a half million killed and injured in the Russian invasion of Ukraine Paul, but no death is good. Tell me though, would Russia have sent in their army if Ukraine was unarmed? Would Israel have sent its army into Gaza if the Palestinians were unarmed?

There can be no justification for the murder of 40,000 innocent men, women and children in Gaza.
Paul1405,
Fester already answered your question & I just want to address your mentality. It's broken beyond repair.

Hi Fester,

The lesser of two evils, no I can not condone war deaths in Ukraine or anywhere else in the world including Gaza. You ask me to answer hypothetical questions, I suspect you have the answers, but I don't. Would America have dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima if it didn't have an atomic bomb? No, a answerable question.

Indy,

No old fella, I never asked a question, do you see a ? in my post. Fester asked me a couple of hypothetical questions, that no one can answer truthfully. I believe even if my mental capacity was TLA it still would be light years in front of yours yours. You bang on about a Nation Service thought bubble, for young people, but you can't even answer basic questions about it. AND, when I put a few home truths to you, you quickly clam up.

Paul1405

The number of deaths and injuries of Gazans in this war is appalling. But they were not murdered. Israel is fighting to reduce the capacity of Hamas to repeat the atrocities of October 2023. It has a right and a duty to do so.

Hamas deliberately uses Gazan civilians as human shields by preventing them from evacuating target areas and hiding its personnel and military facilities among civilians and under civil infrastructure such as schools and hospitals. The suffering of Gazans is one of the strongest propaganda weapons against Israel, and Hamas and its Iranian puppet-masters are more than happy to exploit it. This is what they want.

Hamas is responsible for this horror and Hamas could end it today by freeing the hostages, undertaking to no longer attack Israeli civilians and surrendering those responsible for the October atrocities. These are all things it should do anyway. Then, perhaps, the world could think about ways of building a future in which Palestinians and Israelis can coexist in peace.

Hi Paul,

Asking hypothetical questions is a good way to understand problems. It is never a waste of time trying to answer them, especially for matters you care about.

I thought that those protestors were against weapons for some people, so is it a waste of time to think about what might happen if some people didn't have weapons? You think of the atomic bomb, but what might have happened if the United States had taken no interest in fighting Nazism or Japanese imperialism?

AND, when I put a few home truths to you, you quickly clam up.
Paul1405,
When didn't I ever reply to any of your nonsensical quips ? I do but you not accepting my replies or you simply not replying sensibly is vastly different to you saying I clam up ! You hardly ever reply you merely come back with evasive ridicule with no actual answer anywhere near the debate.
It's up to you to prove your mentality is still salvageabl

Hi Rhian,

Yes, what you say is the official Israeli line, to justify the murder of 40,000 people. Evidence has been presented that large numbers of Palestinians have been murdered in retaliation for the murder of innocent Israelis. Regimes will try and justify their action with an "official line", much of which is not truthful.

Hi Fester,

You use the cause and effect argument, giving the example of; "what might have happened if the United States had taken no interest in fighting Nazism or Japanese imperialism?" What might have happened if Nazism and Japanese imperialism had not existed in the first place. Flawed human behaviour long before the final event resulted in the rise of evil, which as a consequence resulted in the atomic bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki To me that is simply a timeline of mistakes, which we as a human society need to work to avoid. I want to see the causes of evil eliminated in the first instance, you want to deal with the reality of what exists.

Hi Paul,

"Flawed human behaviour long before the final event resulted in the rise of evil, which as a consequence resulted in the atomic bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki To me that is simply a timeline of mistakes, which we as a human society need to work to avoid."

Isn't that hypothetical reasoning? The Nazis used such reasoning to justify their horrors on the basis of it being the natural order of things.

"I want to see the causes of evil eliminated in the first instance, you want to deal with the reality of what exists."

I think it better to uphold the principle of equality by treating all human beings equally. I think it better to resolve problems rather than bear grudges. The ethos of Palestinians is one eliminating what they perceive as the cause of evil, namely Israel. That's why they teach their kids to be genocidal, and Albo and Pen Pen help them to that end by donating Australian taxpayer money to UNRWA.

There's a certain point for incompetent Govt or rather its administration, when they over-step the mark at which the nonsense dished out to the nonsensical masses is simply no longer acceptable. Western Woke mentality has now put one foot over that mark.

Hi Paul

Just because something is the “official Israeli line” doesn’t make it wrong.

There is much about Israel’s behaviour in the current conflict and before that I disapprove of, but I also think it faces an existential threat and has the right and responsibility to try to minimise that threat. I also think that the blame for the recent suffering in Gaza lies overwhelmingly at the feet of Hamas, not Israel.

Modern urban warfare is almost always destructive and bloody with high civilian casualties. In Gaza this is magnified by the fact that Hamas intentionally puts civilians in harm’s way for military and propaganda purposes. The chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, John Spencer, argues that Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history. If you disagree, can you cite a counter-factual?

Accusations of murder, war crimes and even attempted genocide are being weaponised against Israel when it is clear that one party to this conflict is unashamedly and unequivocally guilty of all three, and that party is Hamas. This is a grotesque and vile inversion, and why I agree with Graeme that many of those demonstrating against Israel do not want peace – quite the opposite

"You think of the atomic bomb, but what might have happened if the United States had taken no interest in fighting Nazism or Japanese imperialism?"

- Different situations.

US foreign policy after the end of the Cold War is built around the Wolfowitz doctrine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

U.S. STRATEGY PLAN CALLS FOR INSURING NO RIVALS DEVELOP
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-calls-for-insuring-no-rivals-develop.html

United States ongoing battle to retain supremacy is suicidal to all of us and will destroy the entire planet one way or the other - militarily or economically.
Russia has a strategic nuclear doctrine based around an existential threat.
US policy is an existential threat to Russia, it's in their policy papers on .gov websites.
https://www.csce.gov/briefings/decolonizing-russia-a-moral-and-strategic-imperative/
They've been doing the same kind of thing to China, using terrorists to attack Chinese Belt and Road infrastructure, trying to hamper progress and expansion.
They do this stuff all over the world, they claim a right to intervene anywhere, anytime.

Here's a trade time lapse of Trade USA V's China 1980 - 2018
https://howmuch.net/articles/trade-timelapse-usa-china

China is nearly the entire worlds largest trading partner.
A war with China is a war against the whole world.

what might have happened if the United States had taken no interest in fighting Nazism
Armchair Critic,
From what I've read & observed there definitely wouldn't be any Woke & Neo Nazis around now. I think stupidity on the scale we're seeing now would have died by the wayside a long time ago !

As a long-term member of the Greens, in both Sydney, first, and the Sunshine Coast, now, let me tell you that the demonstrators may look like Greens but they are not.
They are GINOs - Greens in name only. Thanks to the odious Trunp for that acronym.

Hi Rhian,

"Just because something is the “official Israeli line” doesn’t make it wrong." True, but it does remind me of that old adage; "The first causality of war is truth", and in this situation I think that is the case. Its an inescapable fact, 40,000 Palestinians have died at the hands of the Israelis, not all could have been the simple shields of Hamas, I think there has been an element of retribution against the innocent Palestinian people on the part of the Israelis, which is a war crime in my book.

Hi Paul

Yes, the old saying about truth being the first casualty on war has a lot of validity. In this and most other conflicts, it pays to fact check claims by all sides where possible.

But while neither side should be taken at their word, that does not mean they are equally untrustworthy. In most cases where Israel makes a claim that something is true and its enemies say it is false, or vice versa, independent analysis suggests Israel is correct. Hamas blamed the al-Ahli Hospital explosion early in the conflict on Israel, but it was probably a misfire of a rocket fired from Gaza and aimed at Israel. Iran blamed Israel for the bombs that killed dozens of people commemorating general Qassem Soleimani in January, then Islamic State admitted responsibility. Israel was blamed for the rocket explosion that killed 12 Druze children in the Golan Heights, but it was more likely fired by Hezbollah. Hamas denied hiding military facilities under hospitals. The IDF has taken journalists to see the tunnels for themselves. Hamas denied that it committed mass atrocities in its October attacks, but there is overwhelming evidence of widespread rape, torture, mutilation and murder.

The tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths are utterly tragic, and I agree that if this was indeed retribution then it would be a war crime. But I’m not convinced it is, for several reasons. As the expert I cited earlier indicated, Israel has done more to minimise civilian casualties than any other military. Given its superiority in weaponry and manpower, if its intent was to kill large numbers of Gazans, the numbers would surely be even higher. The number of new casualties each day has fallen substantially in recent weeks, as Israel appears close to achieving its military objectives in Gaza. Unnecessary civilian casualties do nothing to advance Israel’s military objectives and undermine its support internationally.

[...continued]

«but laws exist precisely to minimise suffering.»

That may be the intention, maybe even a good intention, but in reality nobody can prevent another from suffering. Once someone did something bad, they will have to pay for it accordingly and suffer no matter what: one could say (as a figure of speech) that God sees to it that they suffer the consequences of their actions, that none of which can escape his oversight.

But then, if you believe in chaos, then I perfectly understand why you conclude that laws can reduce sufferings.

«Functioning societies don’t rely on chaos or gut feelings to make decisions about justice or public safety.»

For that you would first need to show me a functioning society.
A society where people are coerced to follow laws (moreover when it is a system of laws they never freely consented to have anything to do with), and live in fear is, in my view, a dysfunctional society.

A society that attempts to produce justice, duplicating the justice that is already inherent in the universe, is as ridiculous as that king who commands the sun to rise and set at the exact times when the sun would do so anyway.

As for safety, the only way to be safe is to refrain from doing evil, nothing else can save you, but those who believe in chaos shrug it as "accidents".

«Participation isn’t futile as you make it sound.»

Things changed historically once majorities opposed slavery and supported suffrage.
However, the majority still believes in chaos and therefore expects or wishes the state to save them (ultimately from themselves), which it cannot, but they believe that it can.

I can't see that changing in my lifetime.

«It's about finding common ground so that society can function without descending into chaos.»

How is common ground possible between those who believe that the default is chaos and those who understand that we live in a God-given cosmos?

Hi Rhian,

The Gaza War is a dirty war, there is no such thing as a clean war, heaven help those poor bastards trapped in that situation, innocent people on both sides, Israelis and Palestinian. For me the actions of Hamas, totally wrong, retribution by the Zionists, totally wrong. Of course both sides consider themselves to be in the right, the old God is on my side BS, justification of all kinds, more BS. As a pacifist I find nothing right and good in war, its totally abhorrent to me, it has no value, it serves no purpose.

"What this means isn't that they are actually against the war, which was started by Hamas on October 7 with a grisly and unprovoked massacre. It means that they are against Israel winning the war."

Israel already lost the war.
October 6, no-one was talking about a 2 state solution.
With the Abraham accords and normalising relations with Saudi Arabia the 2 State solution was dead.
All that changed on Oct 7.

Israel's stated aim was to defeat Hamas.
That's not going to happen and never was, you can't bean an ideology.
Now the world sees Israel for who it really is, it's more a pariah on the world stage than ever before.

The world 'anti-Semitic' doesn't even really work anymore when it comes from pro-genocide mouths.
The land thieves got a smack in the mouth when Hezbolloh kicked them out of Northern Israel, which is actually Lebanon anyway.
Israel is becoming economically non viable, right now they need help from their Arab US puppet ruler neighbours (axis of assistance) and their adversaries (axis of resistance) have shown all they have to do is send a single hypersonic missile to get through all their air defense and hit them anywhere, anytime.
- And I bet Israel knows there's plenty more where that came from.

Finally a 2 state solution can't be enacted without creating civil war amongst the settlers that will rip the country apart.

The reason for their pager knee jerk reaction was probably because their Unit 8200 got blown up, the country is on the verge of civil war, there's no deal to get the hostages back.

Netanyahu's trying to order an attack on Lebanon, but even his military are opposing it.
- All this from a man who just wants to avoid going to prison.

Hamas knew the price they would have to pay.
If you take that into account, despite the civilian casualties it looks like the Palestinians have fared better overall, despite the destruction of their homes and subjugation.

Israel is on the ropes.

Dear Critic,

I sadly have to agree with most of your analysis, except that:

* Northern Israel is not Lebanon.
* That missile you were speaking of was not super-sonic after all. It was intercepted but not completely destroyed and therefore broken into several parts which were difficult to re-target.
* Unit 8200 was not blown up. The pagers were targeted at that particular time because two Hezbollah operatives in Europe became suspicious of the devices and were about to expose them.

Netanyahu did not actually want to attack Lebanon - after all, what does he care about Israel's displaced northern population?
All he planned, was to order his defence-minister, Gallant, to attack Lebanon, then see the latter refuse or linger and use it as a pretext to sack him. Surprisingly, Gallant obeyed and actually did attack Lebanon and now Netanyahu is searching for the next excuse.

Why sack Gallant, which the Americans view as "the only responsible adult in Netanyahu's government"? So that he can use his position to bribe a small faction (4 MK's) that formerly left the Likud party to return to the Likud and his coalition, thus use their votes to override the high-court by legislating a conscription-exemption for the Ultra-Orthodox, so that the Haredi parties don't leave his coalition, so that he can remain prime-minister and out of jail.

Hi Paul

Like you I see nothing right or good in war; but I am not a pacifist, because sometimes the alternatives are even worse. I am glad the Allies fought and defeated Hitler. I respect the reasons why many peoples over the centuries have fought against colonial rule (though maybe Ghandi in India showed a better path). I hope Ukraine wins its war against Russia.

I hope Islamofascism is defeated because Hamas, Hezbollah and the like are committed to the destruction of Israel and murder of its citizens; Israel has no option but to fight if it wants to stop that happening. But AC is right on one thing – you can’t beat an ideology with weapons alone. Both peoples need a credible, better alternative to perpetual conflict. That’s why I support a two-state solution. Unfortunately, Hamas, Hezbollah (and their Iranian puppet-masters) and Netanyahu do not. But Netanyahu is deeply unpopular and home and there are serious international players – including the USA but also many of Iran’s Middle-Eastern enemies - who do.

I have enjoyed Dr. Alon Ben-Meir’s pieces on OLO – including today’s – because he seems to offer an intelligent analysis of this horrible conflict and a plausible pathway our of it. I hope he’s right.

Hi Yuyutsu,
- I thought some of the territory along the northern border with Lebanon was disputed, but maybe I was incorrect.

"That missile you were speaking of was not super-sonic after all."
- Hypersonic, and I checked the speed/distance/time calculator the other day and 2040 kilometers in 11 minutes is over 11,000 kmh, Mach 9.
"It was intercepted but not completely destroyed and therefore broken into several parts which were difficult to re-target."
- I'm not sure if that was the initial cover story and more info came out later disputing this and that the missile did in fact hit it's target.
Israels Arrow 2 missiles are supposed to be able to hit things travelling at that speed, but it's in the upper limits of the missile systems claimed capabilities.

Unit 8200 got blown up;
I was talking about the August 25 Hezbollah drone strikes against the headquarters of Unit 8200 in Glilot base as part of 'Operation Arbaeen Day', which killed 20+ and 70+ injured.

"Surprisingly, Gallant obeyed and actually did attack Lebanon and now Netanyahu is searching for the next excuse."
- Pretty hectic on both sides I heard, a lot of places targeted.
I hope your lot fared ok.

I knew there was some back-story with Gallant, caught a few bits of info the other day, but I may have been dozing off.

Dear Critic,

«I thought some of the territory along the northern border with Lebanon was disputed, but maybe I was incorrect.»

Yes, but they are tiny, some as small as your backyard.
Similar tiny patches were also disputed between Israel and Jordan, mainly due to water flows and dunes drifting: they were easily resolved within the Israel-Jordan peace deal. These micro-disputes could similarly be resolved in an Israel-Lebanon peace deal.

«2040 kilometers in 11 minutes is over 11,000 kmh, Mach 9.»

True, but was the missile travelling for only 11 minutes? Israel disputes that.

«that the missile did in fact hit it's target.»

A part of the broken missile hit an agricultural field and caused a fire.
An interceptor hit a train-station and damaged a pedestrian escalator.
No person was hurt.

«I was talking about the August 25... which killed 20+ and 70+ injured.»

One soldier killed at Glilot, a few soldiers and a civilian woman wounded and some buildings damaged from falling interceptors. Also one sailor killed on board of his frigate by falling interceptors.

«I hope your lot fared ok.»

Thank you, they are all fine.