Dear JP,

«If everything that happens is due entirely to God’s will and humans have no control whatsoever»

Man has no true control, only apparent control.
The sun never truly rises, yet regardless, it keeps providing us with light and warmth.

«indeed everything is entirely pointless.»

This conclusion is the very danger of half-digested information.
I have told you the truth, but in doing so I also subjected you to great danger.
I am sorry. I hope you are still reading my response and not jumped off a cliff or something.

It is not in the nature of this world for anyone to obtain all their desires.
Maybe in heaven, but if someone told you that you can obtain all you want bodily on earth, then they are the greatest deceivers.

While the typical human mind desires control, all it can obtain is a measure of apparent control.
People may refuse to accept this truth and throw a tantrum, but that will not change how things are.
However, just because something fails to satisfy your mind's desires, does not make it pointless.

«What Peter Bowden wrote, what you wrote, and what I wrote, is all caused by God. It seems that God is just talking to himself via human beings.»

This could be how it looks from a human perspective.
But God is not subject to cause and effect (cause and effect being part of God's creation).

People tried to understand God before you, speculating about the big WHY for ages:

Find God's reply in Job Chapters 38-41:

"Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
..."

Don’t worry Yuyutsu, I am not going to jump off any cliff! Maybe if I thought you were correct I might, but I don’t think you are.

But even if I did jump off a cliff that, according to you, would be God’s will – “all without exception is by God's will”. So if it should be God’s will for me to jump off a cliff, why should that upset you?

I presume that you believe that you also have only “apparent control”?

Do you believe that it is God who actually controls everything that you say and write?

Do you believe that it is God who actually controls everything that I say and write?

If you say ‘yes’ to these two questions, and I assume you must do so, then that is why I say that your way of perceiving the world makes everything pointless and meaningless. If we are not actually involved to some meaningful degree in what we say and write, then we are just God’s puppets. And puppets are just bits of wood, fabric and string, having no intrinsic worth or meaning.

PS If God is controlling everything that I write and believe, then how can I write or believe anything that is incorrect? Do you believe that God plays tricks on us, making us write and believe things that are false?

Dear JP,

«I am not going to jump off any cliff! Maybe if I thought you were correct I might, but I don’t think you are.»

This places me in a moral dilemma.
I can probably convince you that we have no free will, but could I live with the consequences?

So let me limit myself and concentrate instead on the issue of "meaning"
(as in «puppets are just bits of wood, fabric and string, having no intrinsic worth or meaning.»):

You may enjoy a good ice-cream, good music or good sex, you may enjoy the feeling of others appreciating you, you may enjoy the intellectual satisfaction of solving a difficult problem, and you may enjoy the feeling that what you do has a positive lasting effect: that we call "meaning".

If I take away a child's ice-cream, they might throw a tantrum, ditto for the other sources of pleasure.
A child whose ice-cream is snatched might jump under a car in protest, that's why the parent firmly holds their hand: as I don't have that option here, I must be careful.

Ice-cream is real enough, and so is the FEELING and/or THOUGHT that one is producing a positive and lasting legacy, but not the contents of such thoughts: if we analyse them objectively, then we must arrive at the conclusion that no legacy of ours can be eternal.

Objectively, all we ever do and create is like building sand castles.
That fact does not disturb me personally because I am not emotionally invested in leaving a legacy (or in finding a meaning, which is essentially the same). Instead, I joyfully accept God's gift of life and thank God for the present moment.

Since I have no emotional investment of this kind, I am not disturbed at all by the knowledge that I am not the doer of whatever God works through me - I am at peace with it.

Now, I think you can pretty easily guess my answers to your various questions in your last post: would you still need me to answer them explicitly one by one?

“I can probably convince you that we have no free will, but could I live with the consequences?”

Yuyutsu - I don’t know how you cannot see the internal contradictions within what you write.

You say that you think you can convince me that we have no free will – but if we have no free will, (1) how can you decide to convince me either way? (2) how can I become convinced? (3) how can you decide whether you can live with the consequences? The ability for us to be able to do all of these things depends on us having free will!

You continually write as if you and I have free will but then you deny that we have it!

But again, if “all without exception is by God's will” then, yes, you would be right that we have no free will.

You say, “I am not disturbed at all by the knowledge that I am not the doer of whatever God works through me - I am at peace with it”. But what about murderers – do they commit murder because that is God working through them? Can they, like you, be at peace, believing that God worked through them to commit the murder, that the murder was God’s will?

Yes, I would like you to answer my questions.

Dear JP,

«You continually write as if you and I have free will but then you deny that we have it!»

Exactly: In my very first post here, I wrote:
"It is, nevertheless, still very practical to live AS IF we had free will".

Note that I am not denying that we have a will, only that it is free, so the "AS IF" clause only refers to the freedom of our will, not to its existence.

«(1) how can you decide to convince me either way?»

Understanding how exactly it is done is complex and may require years (if not lifetimes) of research, but whatever is the mechanism [by which I decide to try and convince you], it can be carried out just the same whether or not my will is free.

«(2) how can I become convinced?»

By deciding that the evidence/arguments I presented are sufficient.
Yes, for that you need a will, which indeed you have. The capabilities of your will to make that decision, however, are the same whether it is free or otherwise.

«(3) how can you decide whether you can live with the consequences?»

This is again, as in (1), complex and requires research, so my answer is as in (1).

«The ability for us to be able to do all of these things depends on us having free will!»

It depends on us having a will, not on its being free.

«But what about murderers – do they commit murder because that is God working through them?»

To be pedantic, God is not subject to time, so we cannot truly say "God works", yet that is probably the closest to reality we can express in words from the perspective of time-bound creatures.

So yes, murderers do so by the will of God, but for any PRACTICAL PURPOSE they don't know about it, they don't see it this way, in their mind they believe that they work against God.

«Can they, like you, be at peace, believing that God worked through them to commit the murder, that the murder was God’s will?»

[...continued]

Can a murderer truly believe in their heart of hearts that it is only God working through them and they have no input in it?
I think that is rare, but if they can, then they can be at peace.

Alright, some older questions are pending:

«So if it should be God’s will for me to jump off a cliff, why should that upset you?»

There could be several reasons for me to be upset that you jumped off a cliff (though none of them is really justified):

1) unrelated reasons, for example if you owed me money and now you will never return it.

2) Because I feel guilty, or at least foolish, for revealing to you a secret truth which you could not [yet] digest.

3) Because I am afraid that a police investigation would find me responsible for your death (Judge: "If it was your god who made your friend jump, then lets see your god releasing you from jail").

4) Because I still have lingering doubts.

5) Because while I understand on an intellectual level that I was not the doer, I might still emotionally FEEL that I was.

«I presume that you believe that you also have only “apparent control”?»

True.

«Do you believe that it is God who actually controls everything that you say and write?»

Yes (but see below).

«Do you believe that it is God who actually controls everything that I say and write?»

Yes (but see below).

«If God is controlling everything that I write and believe»

The perception of "control" is only from the perspective of a time-bound creature: God does not truly control because God is not subject to time.

«how can I write or believe anything that is incorrect?»

It could be lack of knowledge, it could be lack of honesty, and several other things.

«Do you believe that God plays tricks on us, making us write and believe things that are false?»

Again, it may seem so from a human perspective, but God does not play tricks because God is not subject to time.