Meg – you note that “There is worldwide adoption by nations (Including Australia) of the UDHR and associated Conventions . . .”. That is true, but these Declarations and Conventions are treated as virtually a joke in many countries that are signatories to them. It may look virtuous to be a signatory but the actual application of these documents, as you would well know, is often woeful.

And that does not apply just to countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia or Iran, but to Australia as well. Who would have thought that a person could be arrested, convicted and heavily fined - $3 000 - for promoting the UDHR on a public street in Australia? (I know that is true because it was me that it happened to!!)

But it is worse than that. “Secular” morality is no morality at all, in the usual understanding of morality. In a secular universe, everything has just unintentionally happened into existence, with no purpose or meaning. Nothing is meant or supposed to be in one state rather than another. That being so, whatever happens or is done can be neither right or wrong, good or bad.

Of course, individuals and groups can express preferences as to how they would like things to be – such as those expressed in the UDHR, etc, but that is all they are and ever can be, preferences. There is no compelling reason (apart from the threat of punitive force) as to why anyone should take notice of those particular preferences. After all, one person’s preferences are just as “good” or “bad” as another’s. Hence “secular morality” is essentially an oxymoron.

As President of the Rationalist Society and a lawyer and former academic, I would have thought you would have realised this

The Rationalist Society has no rationality. Why anyone is daft enough to rant about their non-beliefs is beyond me and not worth reading.

Skin in the game is meant as a position which holds a potential of personal loss; this author and Jp are on opposite sides of the canyon of reality.

Secular ethics were once aligned to Christian morality, but those of us caught with our pants down were soon to realise under the onslaught of gay marriage in the first instance, and all subsequent instances as the moral house of Christian morality cards collapsed into Secular doom were to quickly realise: Our trust in the arbitrary ( as we thought, and trusted) nature of the U.N. and its service towards fairness and reason, following the catastrophic events of WW11, were soon again to realise, had been captured by the totally immoral Secular and Godless buffoons, intent on driving Western society into the slimy ditch of a debauched chaos.

WTF?

Religion has always been used as a means of keeping the population under control.

Religious "laws" demand much more and have much tighter behavioural controls on individuals then secular laws do.

Governments appreciate this so much that they allow religious entities to tax their flock and keep the tithe tax-free.

Governments don't care which individuals fear their god so much that they believe they sin and will be punished by god - just so long as there are enough of them.

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Dear Meg,

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I don’t think there is any such dichotomy as “secular morality and religious morality”. In my view, there is just “morality”.

Jacques Monod defined life as :

« A spontaneous, evolutive, sensitive and reproductive process triggered by the fortuitous encounter of complementary elements of matter and energy in a favourable environment » (chance, in this context, meaning a “random variable” and necessity an “inevitable” event).

Morality, altruism, and love are some of the multiple cogs that keep the wheel of life turning.

That said, the suggestion that morality might be considered “secular” does not disturb me, but “not practicing what one preaches” hardly qualifies as “religious morality” – “religious hypocrisy” would seem more appropriate.

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I value secular morality ahead of religious morality. secular morality guarantees religious free and worship.

Moreover, some of the most fanatical religious folk lack true morality. Just look at the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the burning at the stake, of Joan of Arc, and the record of paedophilia in the church!

Furthermore, some of the most decent and moral people I've known were atheists!
Alan B.