I disagree, we just do not see China as an enemy. Perhaps as a future adversary? But not an outcome we could possibly want, albeit, forced to prepare for.

A nuclear armed China can agree that the Pacific and Southeast Asia remain a nuclear free zone. (Grandma what big teeth you have.) And seek to divide old alliances.

And given success there, do as she has done, in Tibet and elsewhere. Assisted by the fifth column and speakers like the boot licking, pro-China author?
Alan B.

Then he woke up after having a mysterious but pleasant dream........

Remember that all of these articles, published under the real names of authors claiming to know everything, are merely their opinions.

What ttbn says.
Alan B.

Of course, the suspicion of China has nothing to do with its massive arms build-up, its predatory trade practises, its intellectual property theft, its wolf worrier aggressive diplomacy, its treatment of the Uighurs, its aggression to Taiwan, its partnership with Russia, etc.

China has made its bed and now must lie in it. No one trusts China anymore. Even the EU has recently come out to say that it needs to de-risk its engagement with China.

What SM says!
Alan B.

Thanks to Murry Hunter, for a most rational article on China today. No longer can China be seen as the "Big Whore of Asia" to be used and abused as it was in the past by western powers. China by its size, economically and militarily is a concern for the less powerful nations in the region including its ASEAN neighbours and Australia. Unlike the post war control the aggressive Americans were able to exert on Asia by the use of force and coercion, that is no longer possible with China. The problem is we have an economically declining aggressive United States and the old colonial power in Britain, combining with the sycophantic Australia and others under their domination Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, attempting to control the Chinese Dragon through antagoniseation. A very dangerous course indeed.

Paul, you need to try speaking from much higher up! You're full of it, pal.
Alan B.

Alan B,

If you simply want to throw insults then you're a fwit. (A term oft used by others on this forum, so it must be acceptable).

When we say China, we really mean its leadership?
This changes, occasionally.
I really don't think the average citizen there spends all day thinking up ways to outsmart Australia.
The average person there is the same as the average person here.
It is the leadership which is different.
I think the stance taken by the leadership is a way of legitimising the way they exercise control.
The leadership is saying: 'mine is the only way. Unless I do it this way, we all go down the gurgler'.
Or words to that effect.
And the people accept it.
Does any of that sound familiar?

Thanks Aspley, ttbn, Shadow Minister, Alan B, Ipso Fatso for your efforts. There's only one point I agreed with Murray Hunter's pro-China article here. He's got a string of achievements- I can't understand his position- maybe China has something on him- maybe he identifies more with South East Asia than Australia. I suppose there have been a few of his articles on OLO- but this one seems the most strange.

I can understand why those concerned feel the need to restrain China.
With Iraq still smouldering after 20 years of war waged on it by the US, UK and Australia I can see where the example set by these entities warrants that they be accepted as leaders of the free world.
Vietnam is in the 'past' but the legacy is still alive with the servicemen who served.
1 year of Ukraine is an 'atrocity' but 20 years of Iraq is consigned to 'mistake'
When the Palestinians attempt to defend themselves against Israeli state sponsored terrorism the West refers to them as 'clashes' and not persecution.
The Holocaust was about the Nazis killing the Jews but the Israelis torturing the Palestinians en masse and killing a few every now and then is acceptable to the west.
Only a fool, of which China is not, is going to accept the hypocritical stance of the West.
The Chinese memory is not short and they still remember the US gunboats up the Yangtze forcing China to accept US conditions of trade.
So any delusional fool who thinks their opinion is going to have China trembling in it's boots is very much mistaken.
The plundering of the Eagle and the Lion is diminishing, along with their influence on world affairs. The Kangaroo had best take notice and find it's own way forward.
China is doing what the West taught it to do.

I can see why China is troubled by the actions of America, the worlds most belligerent nation, their track record of aggression post WWII can't be disputed, it a shocker; Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukraine, and that's not a complete list. Since its inception in 1776 America has been involved in, and often the instigator of, about 150 wars, they even had a big war between themselves. They have been at war, or backed others to wage war on their behalf against half the countries of the world. They have even waged war on their neighbours Canada (British) and Mexico (Spanish) and on every populated continent. It defies belief, but they haven't declared war on the penguins in Antarctica, they may have had their CIA try to covertly overthrow the penguin government down there, but that we don't know about WOW!

In crude terms, the superior university intellectuals want us to be a China asset, ordinary voters (who might still have a grain of common sense) would rather we be an American asset.

I can see how being a redneck would appeal to some however I think it's time Australia grew up instead of looking for someones teat to suck on

Ahh if only the Chinese were a war-mongering nation..

Mexico is joining BRICS
If only the Chinese were to conduct a coloured revolution in Mexico and install a Pro-Chinese leader;
If only the Chinese were to spend 8 years building up the Mexican military so they could wage war upon America and shell innocent women and kids in Texas and California, like the US helped Ukraine do to the women and kids of the Donbass.
- If only China was a war-mongering nation like the US, they could help Mexico take back it's own U.S. stolen territory.

But America has the 'Monroe Doctrine', which means that 'no-one is permitted (by U.S. decree) to do to them what they do to others'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

Maybe the Chinese could help the Hawaiians take back Hawaii too?
- But alas, China is not a war-mongering nation.

China need not attack anyone, time is on their side
They and others are ascending while the collective west is descending.

Hi AC,

You're going to get the Joe Stalin Memorial Award from the Kudos Kid if you keep telling the truth about America like that. We're not on the same song sheet on a lot of things, but gee I do like your style. Mate, have a look at all the wars the Americans have involved themselves in since 1776, it a bloody 150! They even had a bloody big one with themselves, we can't top that! Some wars with some guys I've never even heard of.

BTW, no Voice we're going to have a treaty, American style, they made 100's of them with the Indians, and then a-holed them off their lands. Hawaii is a bobby dazzler of a story, and the way they swindled the Hawaiian's out of the joint.

Remember Marcos in the Philippines, claimed that during WWII he had been a "Freedom Fighter", in fact he was a Japanese collaborator, help send American POW's to their deaths. The Americans knew that, but Marcos was their kinda guy!

Paul and AC,

China started the Korean War, China has started 2 wars with Taiwan, a war with Russia, and Vietnam, 2 wars with India etc.

Tell me again how peaceful China is!

Secondly, the US produces even more oil than Russia, plenty of natural gas and is energy independent. The sanctions on Russia have actually helped the US.

Thirdly, much of the natural gas from Russia has been replaced with Norwegian gas and LNG from the US at relatively low prices. The loss of Russian gas was at worst a speed bump.

As for BRICS

"The term was coined by economist Jim O'Neill in 2001 as an acronym for the four countries he identified as being at a similar stage of newly advanced economic development. In 2009, the leaders of the four countries held their first summit and in 2010 BRIC became a formal institution."

Brazil's GDP has been almost flat for 20 years,
Russia's economy is circling the drain,
India's economy is doing well but cares little for either China or Russia,
China's economy is in trouble after the housing market collapse that dwarfs the GFC and Xi's zero covid policy.
South Africa's economy due to a klepto government is collapsing.

Not one of these countries has a floating currency free of government manipulation and would be considered a reserve currency, and all the Brics countries together have less of their currency held as a reserve than just the UK.

BRICS like ASEAN is a club with very few benefits.

Russia cannot win this war.

"China started the Korean War"
Now there's a horse's patoosie
One thing the US doesn't want is the unification of Korea under any circumstances.
China may not want it either but a unified Korea is more palatable than US.
A unified Korea would prove to be a powerhouse that the US could not contain and would relegate the US to no3 in the world economy in the near future.
The Korean position in Asia will possibly be as being what Italy is to Europe.

"China started a war with Vietnam"....another laughable statement.
The French were bleeding Vietnam for rubber.
The US went in thinking they could pickup a French colony for peanuts when they saw the French unable to retain control of Vietnam.
The French, having foresight, got out reel qwik when they saw how the US was handling the situation.
China helped Vietnam to gain it's independence which it has today instead of it being subjugated like Hawaii.
Vietnam was always referred to as a police action until the US started getting their backsides handed to them big time, then it became a war in the western media.

Hi SD,

You're right on both counts, re the Korean and Vietnam Wars, SM does like to reinvent history from time to time. Just a question, what's your take on the relationship today between China and North Korea and Vietnam, I read little about it, both countries have been traditional enemies of China for millennia. North Korea is a basket case that does rely on economic ties with China for some semblance of survival, but the Chinese don't seem to be over enthusiastic with them, particularly their nuclear program. Vietnam in the context of what they have been through a 30 year war, seem to be somewhat independent.

SD and Pauliar,

North Korea invaded South Korea with armament and support from both Stalin and Mao. So China was up to the neck in the plans to attack the South. The Sino-Vietnamese war AFTER the US-led war (which you two brain surgeons were ignorant of) was in 1979.

I assume you accept the rest so you can both now eat crow.

SM , must be wonderful to cherry pick items out of context and claim them as factual so I'll have to decline your offer of crow

1405,
Make no mistake, yesterday's enemy is tomorrows friend.
Everyone chooses alliances of momentary convenience.
The reason the US is out in the cold in Asia is because they have exhibited decades of disrespect toward cultures of old and to this day incapable of grasping any understanding of what they've done.
Birds of a feather will always flock together and the Asians are birds of similar feather in culture, respect, and family values.
The US is about, Use and abuse, like the supportive Afghans still waiting promises made and entry visas that will never come.
When the US gives aid it comes with big fish hooks, not small.
As far as China and N.Korea,
China is benefiting out of N.Korea testing and research and it will support them just to maintain the status quo.
Whatever manipulations the US has applied in the past the Chinese will emulate and do it better.
China may be hamfisted at times until they get it right unlike the US who keeps insisting they be obeyed thinking the Monroe doctrine will be their right to do so.
On Vietnam,
China doesn't need to control because they know when push comes to shove they will align against the US. 'birds of a feather'
If someone rapes your daughter and kills your son are you going to accept the 'that was yesterday, lets move on attitude?
That takes some cahoonies yet the US thinks it's their right to demand it!
Lets's be clear here, the US helps themselves under the guise of helping others and when that doesn't work they pull out a big gun.

Iraq is a prime example!
Support them while they do your bidding then decimate the country with not one person held responsible... and the Asian world sees it!
Australia continually does UK and US bidding, so why should the Asians be different?
Is being an Anglo Saxon supposed to put you at the top of the evolutionary ladder?

Divide and conquer only works when you have ignorant societies to manipulate and the Asians are far from ignorant.

"The Sino-Vietnamese war AFTER the US-led war (which you two brain surgeons were ignorant of) was in 1979.'

You don't have to be as ignorant of the facts as SD and Paul are to completely misread the situation.....but it helps.

Laughingly SD thinks all of Asia is behind the CCP ("Birds of a feather will always flock together and the Asians are birds of similar feather....").

Perhaps he needs to learn about nations like Japan, Philippines, Taiwan, Vietnam and India (to just mention the big boys) who are most decidedly not flocking to the CCP banner.

China sees itself returning to its millennia old self-described position as the natural hegemon for east Asia. Those who don't want to bend the knee to Peking are left with very little choice other than to accept US help. That the current US leadership is so incompetent doesn't encourage too much confidence that the US help will be decisive, but beggars can't be choosers.

China has maybe a decade before its internal inconsistencies (a rapidly declining population and rapidly exiting manufacturing base) cause it to lose its once-in-a-century shot at regional supremacy. Thereafter the Han Empire will begin circling the drain as its done so many times before.

While-ever the US is run by the current kakistocracy, its allies msut remain nervous and wary. But those allies are already looking to each other for the support and stability to withstand an expansionist CCP. Australia getting its arms from the US that allows it to play its part in the Japan and Indian led resistance to the Han Empire, makes perfect sense.

The most interesting part of all this is that the most obvious path for the Chinese to expand their base and prolong their growth is not south and east where adversaries proliferate, but north and west where a Russia bleed dry by a futile war is a sitting duck.

China claims it wants to reverse the humiliations of the Opium Wars. At some point they'll start to talk about reversing the humiliations of the Treaty of Aigun and its aftermath.

Hi mhaze,

"China claims it wants to reverse the humiliations of the Opium Wars."
- It was the western empires that did that.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/22/xi-tells-putin-of-changes-not-seen-for-100
>>“Right now there are changes – the likes of which we haven’t seen for 100 years – and we are the ones driving these changes together,” Xi told Putin as he stood at the door of the Kremlin to bid him farewell.
The Russian president responded: “I agree.”<<

Not only are Russia and China natural allies, as Russia has food, energy and other resources such as military technology and commodities whilst China has other technologies and a large manufacturing base;
They are also close friends and their nations are stronger working together, especially against the U.S. unipolar world order, which are adversaries of both, trying to conduct coloured revolutions and regime changes and wars against them.

Putin and Xi make pancakes
http://youtu.be/r5qZoT6bbJo

'Treaty of Aigun'
You're to busy thinking like an American neoconservative, thinking you can use issues to drive a wedge between people for never-ending conflict, war profits and play off both sides while holding them hostage to the US unipolar wold and monetary system.

- The games up -
They already know well where their trade and economic interests lie, and who the troublemaker is.

The night the US bombed a Chinese embassy
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48134881
- China hasn't forgotten

Prolific OLO author (up to 2018) BRUCE HAIGH sadly passed away on April 7, 2023.

Bruce's collected OLO Articles and a mini-biography are at http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/author.asp?id=4504

His OLO biography reads:

"Bruce Haigh is a retired Australian diplomat. He worked on Indonesian affairs and has written many articles, papers and a book on issues relating to Indonesia. He comments on international and domestic issues and farms olives and grapes at Mudgee, New South Wales.

Bruce Haigh has 35 years experience in foreign policy and security analysis. He served in South Africa from 1976-79 and ran a training program for black South Africans in Australia from 1990-93 and recently gave his extensive black South African art collection back to the nation. Bruce Haigh served twice in Pakistan and Afghanistan and also in Iran and Saudi Arabia. He was a friend of Benazir Bhutto. His grandfather served as a soldier on the NW Frontier of India based in Quetta, Peshawar and Rawalpindi in 1904-05."

Bruce was also published frequently by the Canberra Times and other fine newspapers.

A fond Tribute "Bruce Haigh: a farewell" was written by Julian Cribb, dated April 9, 2023, at http://johnmenadue.com/bruce-haigh-a-farewell/

Bruce's collected essays, all but one written after his OLO career, are at http://johnmenadue.com/author/bruce-haigh/page/2/

Goodbye Bruce. You were a great humanitarian bloke and a stirring OLO author.

Mavs

Hilarious stuff Murray. Umm, you might want to check your facts about China and nuclear weapons for a start.

Thai Opposition Asks US to "Restore Democracy" in Thailand [do regime change]
http://youtu.be/nWTngGxiagI

Thanks AC,

I watched the video, dangerous stuff this "regime change" imposed by America on others for their own self interest. Poking and prodding the Chinese Dragon in the way they are, should be of extreme concern to us all. China will continue to build economically and militarily until it reaches a point where it will say, enough is enough, and act against American aggression. The forums 'Useful Idiots', we know who they are, support the actions of America in the name of "freedom and democracy" what a crock of you know what!

Hi Paul,
It's a bit of an eye opener once you understand how US foreign policy actually works under the cover of human rights and 'supporting democracy'. Did you see the map showing the countries where National Endowment for Democracy is operating? It's more or less an entire ring around Russia and China. 99+% of people are completely ignorant of how the world actually works, but now you're one of the few people who better understands.

Brian (the creator of the video) has done many videos like this showing what the US is doing in different countries, watch this one about China and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, I know that's a topic that would interest you.

The Hidden Proxy War Washington Wages against China
http://youtu.be/DXh5fabezkI

If you have a bit more time up your sleeve, this one (seperate author) is well worth a watch too, shows how democracy serves private interests not the average Joe. The interview itself only goes for a little over half the length of the video.

MICHAEL HUDSON ON BRICS DE-DOLLARIZATION, THE BANKING CRISIS, AND MULTIPOLARITY
http://www.youtube.com/live/CWQjYAg_M84?feature=share

SD,

Nothing was out of context you simply screwed up because of your ignorance of history, I knew about the war between Vietnam and China and you didn't and didn't even bother to check. I expect this level of stupidity from Paul aka village idiot. I hope you can exceed the low bar of his intellect.

Paul, u can't be serious, as McEnroe used to say.

Do you honestly think that an unaccountable CCP will be better for the world?

Have you wondered why many Chinese want to leave China, and why Taiwan does not want to be part of China.

Get over your anti-US sentiment and ask what would the CCP do to greenies or any other group that stands in its way.

Sad that we all have the same information, but we all see the world so differently.

Yes, the US can be an ...hole, but u wait and see what China does should it ever get its way.

When I mentioned the Opium Wars AC advised " It was the western empires that did that." Yes they did. Thanks for telling me something I obviously already knew. But the point I was making was that while the Opium Wars were taking place, Tsarist Russia took the opportunity to blackmail a weakened and beleaguered Han Empire into signing over vast tracts of land to China's north - places like Vladivostok, Khabarovsk and Sakhalin. But the Chinese haven't forgotten that these places were once theirs and have began to agitate about it. Quietly now but agitate nonetheless by reissuing maps of the region with the old Chinese names and protesting Russian anniversary celebrations over the founding of Vladivostok since it was on stolen land (from their point of view). There will come a time when China will be more forceful in its aims of recovering stolen land.

AC writes: "Russia and China natural allies"
No they are temporary allies with a common enemy. But even a rudimentary historic knowledge shows that great powers who share a border a never allies for long.

AC tells me in relation to the 'Treaty of Aigun'
"You're to busy thinking like an American neoconservative,"

Unlike AC who has picked a side and only looks for information that supports that pick, I'm merely an interested observer. In the same way as I don't root for one side or the other in regards to the current war on the Slavic Steppes, I don't care who ends up controlling Siberia. I just observe, as above, that China is beginning to flex its muscle in regards to what it considers stolen land. In the same vein, as Russia is fully occupied in its futile war to reverse the fall of the USSR, China is expanding its influence in the Central Asian republics that used to be Russian homeland.

Looking at world great power politics in regards to what happens to be going on in 2023 without a wider viewpoint, inevitably leads to misunderstandings.

Hi Again AC,

I watched the fist video "The Hidden Proxy War Washington Wages against China". Imagine if China was funding and supporting some dissident group within America, there would be all out war. Unfortunately the sycophants on the forum won't accept America does any wrong. I will accept like the Soviet Union before it, China is no clean skin, but their approach is to win over governments and peoples through economic means.

I have friends in Fiji, and it was Chinese money that allowed for road improvements to the highland villages, roads which has been a nightmare for as long as I've known them. The bus terminates down below, then its a 5 mile uphill trek for school kids getting home, unless a 4WD comes along and picks them up. Given those conditions its no wonder anyone's money is acceptable.

BTW, My friends working in resorts in Fiji, love Australian tourists, they say Aussies drink a lot, Chinese tourists okay, just give them a friendly smile, no trouble. They don't get a lot of Americans, but they say very demanding people, and very loud. In Fiji if you are loud talking its considered very bad manners, up there with farting.

"Yes, the US can be an ...hole, but u wait and see what China does should it ever get its way."

That is self-evidently true. Just ask the Uighur.

But its not the full story. From Australia's point of view, we are immeasurably better off in a world that operates under a liberal regime. The world has been dominated by rules and codes determined by British liberal thought for centuries. Australia exists as the nation it is because the world operates to enhance and encourage free trade, not just in goods but in people and finance and thought. A world dominated by the CCP would be highly detrimental to Australia and would force us to become something very different to what we are today.

In a world where the dominant power was no longer democratic in its aspirations, those nations to our north whose adherence to democracy is equivocal would surely head down other paths, also threatening our way of life.

Australia has support the liberal world order for its whole existence. Its why we helped against the Boer, were in WW1 and Korea and Vietnam. Why we support Ukraine. Not because we have a vital immediate interest in those wars but because we supported the liberal order that fought those wars. That is why the Taiwan Straits are important to us and why, flawed as it is (especially under the current kakistocracy), we support the US against its foes. In the long run it is in our self-interest.

Hi Paul,
"I watched the fist video "The Hidden Proxy War Washington Wages against China". Imagine if China was funding and supporting some dissident group within America, there would be all out war."

- Likelyly the same line of thinking that lead me to write that earlier facetious comment about China sponsoring a coloured revolution in Mexico to install a Pro-Chinese leader and arming them to take back Texas and California; and also Hawaii.
I guess it was also a bit of a jab at the mess in Ukraine.

Yes the Chinese actually do seem to want to build and improve the world.
It's strange the world doesn't really work the way the average Joe thinks it does.

Hi mhaze
"That is self-evidently true. Just ask the Uighur."
- There's more to the story, originally the Uyghurs were apparently supported by Turkey and Saudi Arabia, because they're Muslims;
But now MBS supports China in the crackdown on them, why?
- Probably because the people causing the trouble are sponsored by the West to deliberately commit terrorism.

Saudi crown prince defends China’s right to fight ‘terrorism’
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/2/23/saudi-crown-prince-defends-chinas-right-to-fight-terrorism
"Activists say MBS’ support for China’s ‘anti-terrorism’ measures is tacit approval of crackdown on Uighur Muslims."

I guess its funny that the West can get away with stuff China and Russia can't just by screaming 'democracy and human rights'.
- The west screams this but then it arms and funds terrorists / separatists to carve off a chunk of China.
- Buy hey if other separatists do it, (against the Wests wishes like in Ukraine) or if Russia tries to protect Russians then it's a completely different story.

Cant you see the hypocrisy?
If you haven't watched the videos mhaze check them out.
- There's more to the Uyghur story, but to truly understand it you need to understand how the West really operates around the globe.

I might watch that Michael Hudson one I added again
(THE LINK WITH THE DESCRIPTION IN CAPITALS)
- There was a lot in it and I really want to take in and digest everything he was saying.

I watched the first 5 minutes of the video and as I suspected it was a talking head spouting conspiracy theories with lots of innuendoes but zero evidence. No real evidence is needed for the two resident conspiracy fans as long as his conspiracy theories match theirs.

So ArmChair, you don't dispute that a genocide is taking place, but just think its justified!!

Genocide is justified? At that point you've lost me and any claim to be a disinterested gatherer of facts.

Of course, this isn't the first time I've come across this type of 'thinking' (for want of a better term). Throughout the 20th century there were any number of idealogues and partisans who sought to justify the various genocides of that blighted century. Interestingly the vast majority of them were on the left.