Above all else Israel needs to stop acting as an apartheid nation.
After that some progress may be possible.

Sorry, David. This is not down to Jordan but rather Israel. And as easy as with drawing now illegal occupation and the annexing of occupied territory!
Alan B.

@ ateday
It would be good if you could provide evidence for the outrageous slur of "aparthied" you claim is perpetrated by the Middle East's sole democracy. Last I understood from a visit to South Africa, "apartheid" is the treating of citizens differently according to race, religion, ethnicity etc.

@david singer
If what you say is true, then the time has come to rattle a few cages. Israel could start by divorcing from the Hashemites in Jordan and instead give responsibility of Islam's 3rd holy site to the House of Saud. What's the worse that can happen? That the House of Saud would be found to be as inattentive to pulling their weight as the Hashemites?

That's the problem with lawyers - they think that writing documents is equivalent to solving issues.

Is King Abdullah also responsible for failing to stop Chechen Russian-Muslims from raping Christian Ukrainian women and shooting their husbands?

With civil marriage, an integrated school system and separation of religion and state Israel can become a democratic nation, Jews and Muslims can intermarry to become one people and peace will have a chance.

Dear David F.,

«With civil marriage, an integrated school system and separation of religion and state Israel can become a democratic nation, Jews and Muslims can intermarry to become one people and peace will have a chance.»

If you want peace at any cost, then why not shoot (or nuke) them all:
I can assure you that dead Jews and Muslims will no longer be fighting, ever!

But could you suggest some less drastic measures that can also achieve peace, something more realistic, something that they are a bit more likely to accept, something less than converting them all into David-F clones, something that takes the mentality and aspirations of these people into account at least to some degree, something less than the total destruction of all these people hold most dear?

Dear Yuyutsu,

I would love to see peace there. I would love to see peace everywhere. The reality is that, if they all were to become David F clones, they would find something else to fight about.

Sung to the tune of Home on the Range:

Oh, give me a clone
A clone of my own
With the Y chromosome turned to X.
Then this clone, this clone of my own
Would be of the opposite Sex

There is no God. Judaism is nonsense. Islam is nonsense. Christianity with a messiah who didn't bring peace, a god in three parts, a virgin having a baby and life after death is triple nonsense.

Dear Yuyutsu,

To be serious you spoke of "something that takes the mentality and aspirations of these people into account at least to some degree, something less than the total destruction of all these people hold most dear?"

Seriously, I think most people hold their nonsensical religious beliefs most dear. They kill each other to defend that nonsense. I think the total destruction of what those people hold most dear to be replaced by kindness, rationality and the scientific method as a way of thinking would be a great improvement over what many people hold most dear. It is my opinion that what most people hold most dear isn't worth a pail of warm spit.

Dear David F.,

Well you know that we disagree over some issues on God and religion, but that's OK: you cannot force me to forsake my faith, neither over the internet nor in Australia. Even if you claim that what is dearest to me is nonsense, your view does not change the fact in the slightest that that and none other is what is dearest to me.

Putin believes that there are no Ukrainian people, that those who call themselves "Ukrainian" should and want to be absorbed by Russia. He believed that the Ukrainians will welcome his troops as "liberators" - well he got a nasty surprise that shattered his unrealistic expectations.

So you too wish to step into the Middle-East like an elephant in a china shop, telling them to change their religion, to believe in science instead and all that, to hate what they now love and to love what they now hate - you know what? They will fight you back as bitterly as the Ukrainians fight their Russian invaders, as bitterly as the Jews fought the Romans in Massada, as bitterly as a mother duck fights when you try to take what is dearest to her, her duckling. Then you are neither even Russian nor Roman - so instead of making peace you will run home bleeding, crying, calling Mom for help.

You further opine that: «what most people hold most dear isn't worth a pail of warm spit.»

- not just the religious people even, now most people!
Well you may be in your 90's, but with such non-compromising and insensitive attitudes you gained no peace-making communication skills during your long life, only the skill to make others upset and angry.

Orthodox Jewish parents who learn that their sons or daughters (for Muslims it's only the daughters) wish to marry outside the faith, sit Shivah and thereafter consider their child as dead. Many Jewish parents send their children to Israel for that very purpose, to help them meet a Jewish spouse/partner and prevent them from marrying others - now you try to break their will...

Jews and Muslims can intermarry to become one people and peace will have a chance
davidf,
But isn't peace exactly what neither side wants ? If it were then there'd be peace already !

Dear Yuyutsu,

I do not advocate forcing anyone to do anything. Although I think your beliefs are nonsense I would not use compulsion to get you to deny them. Reason usually takes second place to primitive nonsense that appeals to the emotions. I do not expect an epidemic of reason to rid humanity of the religious crap they are filled with. I am happy that I have lived to 96 and am apparently in my right mind. I am happy that some people have rid themselves of religious crap. I am happy that some people are kind. The reality is that your nonsense or similar nonsense will continue to curse humanity. I think you and others ocasionally have generous impulses which break through the religious crap. In the Middle East a Muslim fanatic shot Sadat, and a Jewish fanatic shot Rabin. That is the reality, and kindness along with reason are in short supply.

Dear David F.,

Thank you for clarifying that you do not support the use of force.

You know well that my view of religion is very different to yours, but this is not the topic here.

I still believe that peace, including in the Middle-East, can also be achieved by less drastic means than either physical or spiritual murder, for example by a respectful territorial compromise and separation.

I know that you wish for peace in the Middle-East, but sometimes I wonder whether your wish for their loss of religion is even stronger.

Dear Jonathan J. Ariel,

I think I can assist.

There you go.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

See no slur, just a proper assessment of what the world already knows from the highly regarded Amnesty International.

David F said- "I think the total destruction of what those people hold most dear to be replaced by kindness, rationality and the scientific method as a way of thinking would be a great improvement over what many people hold most dear."

Question- With respect- Do you think that the perception or good intention of "kindness, rationality and the scientific method" is sometimes used as an excuse for force in it's varying forms either in the eyes of the giver or the receiver?

Dear Yuyutsu,

The loss of religion is a step toward peace. There will be conflict for other reasons. However, religion is a great source of hatred, conflict and evil. It separates peoples for no good reason. Most people's religion is neither a consequence of choice or revelation. It is the religion of their parents. Religion inculcates hate for people who believe in a different kind of nonsense or reject the nonsense. Crusades, wars of the Reformation, slavery of ‘heathen’ people, suttee, 9/11, Joshua’s genocide, forced conversions, missionaries following gunboats, compounds where indigenous people were forced to deny their culture and the Holocaust are examples of religious evil. It is nothing but organized superstition. It is the relict of a pre-scientific age, but most people are in thrall to that nonsense.

Good and evil is often a matter of perspective.

I was told, each time I drew my sword, I should consider not what I killed, but what I allowed to live- D'Artagnan

Dear David F.,

Clearly you do not understand what religion is because the people you just mentioned - the Crusaders, those who fought for Reformation in cruel ways, those who enslaved ‘heathen’ people, those who murder widows, the 9/11 terrorists, the Biblical Joshua, those who forced conversions, violent missionaries, those who denied indigenous people their culture, and obviously the Nazis - were all pretenders, superstitious maybe, but none of them was religious!

So you seem to swallow their false religiosity claims, hook, line, and sinker.

True religion does not separate people and has nothing to do with superstition: true religion uncovers our unity in God and nobody can approach God until they rid their mind of hatred, conflict and evil.

This "scientific" age has not been helping us to uncover our unity because modern "science" tries to limit reality to only the outermost physical shell, only that which can be detected by our gross limited senses and processed by our gross limited minds, thus missing our true identity as God, instead mistaking us to be separate human bodies that must constantly compete over physical resources. Here is one outcome of science - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-28_Sarmat

Dear Yuyutsu,

You are like many religionists. They disown the stench of religion by labeling the rotten parts 'false religion'. Jesus, who many accept as a religious authority, said, 'By their fruits shall ye know them.' Many fruits are rotten. I cited some of those rotten fruits. There is such a thing as a Holocaust denier. They admire some of the things that Hitler did so they deny his crimes. I don't feel your apologies for religion are any different. You find value in some of religion so you label what you don't like as false religion. I find value in some aspects of religion, but its evil outweighs the good. The difference between you and me is that I don't deny the evil of religion or call it false religion. Much of religion stinks. I understand what religion is. Religious people condemn those who understand.

Dear David,

"By their fruits shall ye know them" refers to people, especially people who claim to be religious. The "stench" you refer to is the stench of some such people, not of any religion they claim to have.

Claiming to be religious is cheap, and it also used to be popular, it was he fashion until recently so everybody claimed so, the good with the bad.

But does it mean anything? Well, "By their fruits shall ye know them"... Yes, many fruits are rotten, but they are not the fruits of religion, more likely they are fruits of certain social and national traditions.

«There is such a thing as a Holocaust denier. They admire some of the things that Hitler did so they deny his crimes. I don't feel your apologies for religion are any different.»

Well this only speaks of your feelings, so I take it at face value that this is how you feel.

«You find value in some of religion»

No, I find value in religion, all of it.
What you were referring to earlier is not religion, but probably some sort of contemptible social customs and beliefs.

«I understand what religion is.»

No you don't: religion is whatever path - in thought, word or deed, which leads one closer to God. Thoughts, words and deeds that do not lead one closer to God, how more so thoughts, words and deeds that take one away from God, are not religion, no matter how many dignitaries and churches endorse them. If you want, please find them some other name.

Finally, if you don't believe that anything can bring one closer to God, then that's fine - it just means that you believe that religion does not exist. You are entitled to that view, just please do not blame all the troubles of the world on something that in your view does not exist.

Yuyutsu said "Here is one outcome of science - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-28_Sarmat"

Answer- "sometimes colloquially known in the West as the "Satan II", is a Russian liquid-fueled, MIRV-equipped super-heavy intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) under development by the Makeyev Rocket Design Bureau since 2009.[5][9] It is intended to replace the R-36M ICBM (SS-18 'Satan') in Russia's arsenal."

Interesting point. There's good and bad in everything I suppose.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I never claimed that religion does not exist. It does exist, and it is rotten.

Dear Yuytsu,

I certainly believe that religion exists. I believe that it exists, and it is rotten. It is a source of hate, misery, division and oppression.

I wrote;

«I understand what religion is.»

Yuyutsu wrote;

No you don't: religion is whatever path - in thought, word or deed, which leads one closer to God.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Buddhism is a religion. Buddhism has no need for a God. God is an invention that goes with theistic religions. Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. Other religions may contain a belief in more than one God as Roman, Greek and Norse religions did. Your limited definition of religion does not include non-theistic and polytheistic religions.

Maybe you should learn a little about religion. I understand what religion is. It is a device that humans with pre-scientific minds use to explain the universe. Humans do not become virtuous or wise when they have a scientific mind. They simply know about the inadequacies of religion. I don't know of anything that will make humanity virtuous and kind. I do know that getting rid of religion will eliminate one justification for humans not being virtuous and kind.

Dear David F.,

You say that Buddhism is a religion:
It is a religion for some Buddhists because it draws them closer to God (in which they may not believe, it does not matter at all).
But not for others, such as the Buddhist monks who persecute the Rohingya people, kill them, burn their homes - no, for them Buddhism does not serve as a religion.

And it is the same for the Abrahamic "religions":

For some Jews, Judaism is a religion which serves them by helping them remember God at every moment.
For other Jews, Judaism is a national power trip which in fact takes them away from God.

Christianity serves some practicing Christians, who use it to become humble, forgiving and Christ-like.
But other Christians are damaged by Christianity, which makes them arrogant, fanatic and violent against those who do not agree with their Biblical views.

Islam makes some of its followers humble, generous, devoted and self-controlled. Islam also creates violent terrorists and those who oppress women - they may be Islamic, they may believe in the theory of Allah, but for them Islam is not a religion at all, but actually draws them away from Allah.

And yes, while Hinduism is a religion for many Hindus which leads them towards the one God, no matter which god(s) happen to be their favourite(s), for many others it is a national power trip or just a pack of superstitions about how to succeed in material life.

Purification of mind and heart are necessary for coming closer to God, thus are the most important component of religion. Violence and arrogance cloud the mind and block the heart, thus draw one away from God, no matter what mental idea(s) they may hold about God.

«I never claimed that religion does not exist.»

Not explicitly, because you refer to all kinds of behaviours that have little to do with religion as "religion". Excluding that garbage, you seem to think that nothing else remains, nothing that truly leads one closer to God.

Dear David F.,

«Your limited definition of religion does not include non-theistic and polytheistic religions.»

Why not? Religion isn't about what one believes in, it's about how one lives, about whether their mode of life brings them closer to God, or heaven forbid, away from God.

Yes, certain beliefs may be conducive for coming closer to God, then taking them onboard CAN be used correctly as a religious technique for purifying one's heart and mind, but others might adopt these same beliefs for different ends and for them, these same beliefs might be counter-religious.

«I understand what religion is. It is a device that humans with pre-scientific minds use to explain the universe.»

Religious people in general have no care how the universe works because they are just too busy serving and following God, with little time left to theorize about the universe. There are however, as mentioned above, believers in God that aren't religious, who may only be infatuated with some theory of God but do not practice what they believe in.

Nowadays we also have more non-believers who are very curious about the workings of the universe. Because it occupies their minds that much, some of them tend to project their own minds on the religious mind, falsely assuming that the religious are as interested as them in the workings of the universe, only that they (the religious) supposedly use theories of God as their "solution", solution for their own curiosity.

«I don't know of anything that will make humanity virtuous and kind.»

That is almost equivalent to the thought that religion does not exist.

«I do know that getting rid of religion will eliminate one justification for humans not being virtuous and kind.»

What a perfect example of throwing the baby with the bath-water.

Yes, one justification could be gone out the window. Surely people who look for justifications could find others.

But if getting rid of religion was indeed possible, then all virtues and kindness would also fall by the wayside, then the best justification for dropping virtue and kindness would become "what for?!"