"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
ozpen,
Yep, but really bloody difficult with all the crap raining down on us from the Anarchist Left !

Dear Alan.B,

It is unlikely any of the Gospel writers were eye-witnesses even given the protestations of the likes of mhaze.

What is instructive is seeing the differences in each reflecting the order they were written.

Mark, the first, does not contain any references to Jesus being called God nor any mention of a virgin birth. When Christ was on the cross Mark has him cry: "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me". This survives into the second (Matthew) but by Luke it has become "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit" and by John Jesus does not address God at all from the cross.

The case for the divinity of Jesus is progressively padded over each subsequent Gospel. Still it is a powerful story and one that still inspires today.

OzSpen,

Is it a case of cut and run when you are asked to provide evidence for the resurrection and ascension of Christ. You claimed I was presupposing these event didn't take place because I have some "anti-Jesus" bias, which I don't accept, as I can not find plausible evidence for those events. As Steele has said; "The case for the divinity of Jesus is progressively padded over each subsequent Gospel. Still it is a powerful story and one that still inspires today." That I agree with.

Again I ask if you have the evidence, other than the Gospels, for Christs resurrection and later ascension into Heaven, please put it forward.

Christ was most likely a disciple and relative of John The Baptists, whose existence is authenticated in the writings of Josephus. John was a renegade preacher within Judaism, possibly a leader within the Essene Sect. The Essenes were a powerful group within Judaism for about 300 years preaching that salvation was at hand, and with anti-Roman hostility many Essens, including John and later Jesus, were executed by the Romans for the crime of sedition. With the death of John, Jesus assumed the leadership of Johns group, that accounts for the very late start in life of the Jesus ministry, at an advanced age for the times of 30.

"It is unlikely any of the Gospel writers were eye-witnesses even given the protestations of the likes of mhaze."

Well there are good arguments on both sides. On balance I'm agnostic on the issue but lean toward Matthew and Mark being disciples, Luke probably and John probably not. But to assert certainty on any of it is fraught.

The issue is an interesting exercise in the pursuit of truth in ancient history given the paucity of sources on many of these questions. But its not an argument I care to have with the 30 minute experts that abound here

Foxy,

<<But as I understand it - it is God Himself who does the converting, and that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them.>>

You've missed the other half of God's equation in John 12:32, " And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

God converts but people respond: 'If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved' (Romans 10:9-10).

OzSpen,

It seems that you are only capable of seeing things
from one side. That's fine and your faith. However,
something to consider is that not all people believe
as you do or believe in God. Many obey their conscience.

And even Pope Francis has stated that non-believers would be
forgiven by God if they followed their conscience and did
not hurt anybody.

Have a nice day.

I have nothing further to say.