Bronwyn,

"My sources are solid and reliable."

This is, I think, the third or fourth time I've said that I agree with your sources that there are Nazis in Ukraine, in places like the Azov Brigade. Your sources are solid and reliable, within reason, on that point. Where they, and therefore you, unravel is that they go from that fact to assert that said Nazis have outsized influence in Ukraine and on the Ukrainian government. They, and you, offer no evidence for that because there is no evidence for that.

I've also asked you several times to consider the results of the last Ukrainian election where these Nazis who you think have significant influence in Ukraine, failed to seal even one single seat in a 450 seat parliament.

Its instructive that you simple ignore this point - pretend it doesn't exist. Ignoring data because it doesn't fit your theory is the opposite of scholarship.

Foxy wrote: "mhaze is saying that we "misunderstand"
what Trump really means when he calls Putin's actions
"savvy" "smart" and "genius."

I did say you misunderstood the point of his comments. I explained why.

That you continue to make these claims makes me now think it wasn't a misunderstanding on your part but a deliberate misinterpretation. Naughty naughty.

SR,

"My goodness what revisionist rubbish."

Not revisionist SR. Merely a corrective to your fables.

"Trump said he believed Putin over the FBI reports of Russian interference in the US election."

Well yes he did. Why? Well because Putin was right and the FBI wrong. Trump knew that. Those of us not wedded to the collusion malarkey know it. Those interested in the truth knew it after the release of the Mueller report. Even the hold-outs now know it as we see Democrats charged with lying to the FBI about it, fabricating evidence, spying on Trump all while in the pay of Hilary. Catch up.

"Trump pulls out of Syria and the Russians get the American bases."

Trump pulled out of Syria because there was no reason to be there. On the way out he ordered the destruction of an entire Russian battalion. Not exactly the work of someone owned by Putin.

So Putin stopped invading countries because he got all he wanted from Trump.

Really?

Were they thankful that that Trump thankfully flooded the world with price-crashing oil or when he killed Russian mercenaries in Syria?

Was Putin content that the United States got out of the missile deal so favourable to the Kremlin? Was he happy that Trump sold U.S. offensive weapons to Ukraine or when Trump upped the U.S. military budget, or jawboned NATO into spending another $100 billion on defence? "Did Putin clap when Trump killed Soleimani and Baghdadi, and bombed ISIS out of existence? "

"If Trump were the Manchurian candidate that people keep wanting to believe that he is, here are some of the things he’d be doing:

Limiting fracking as much as he possibly could
Blocking oil and gas pipelines
Opening negotiations for major nuclear arms reductions
Cutting U.S. military spending
Trying to tamp down tensions with Russia’s ally Iran."

Who did those things? Obama. Who's doing most of them now - the clown in the White House.

mhaze

<< Its instructive that you simple ignore this point - pretend it doesn't exist. Ignoring data because it doesn't fit your theory is the opposite of scholarship. >>

I wasn’t ignoring data. I felt I had responded to your point adequately, that’s all.

I’m not familiar with the background and credentials of the Ukrainian Government and I’m not interested enough to delve any further. As I’ve already pointed out though, I do know that the Zelensky government is either too weak to suppress the rightwing extremists infesting the country or it doesn’t want to.

Whatever the make-up of the current government, there is definite evidence that it is more than willing to accommodate a strong neo-nazi presence within the country, some of which includes:

1. Ukraine voting against the UN resolution in December on combating the glorification of Nazism and neo-Nazism.

2. The UN vote being followed by a torchlight parade through Kiev commemorating the birthday of wartime Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera.

3. The mandating of the Ukrainian language in response to the demands of the Banderites and other nationalist right-wing groups.

4. Radical nationalists and neo-Nazi militias being integrated into the Ukraine military.

5. The Ukraine government continuing to circumvent the Minsk agreement and allowing extreme-right militia groups to wage war against the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Only a rightwing government that sympathises with neo-Nazi ideology would allow any of the above to happen.

Bronwyn,

The far right failed to achieve in one seat in the Ukraine parliament despite active efforts to do so. That is indicative of a movement that makes lots of noise but has no influence.

"Ukraine voting against the UN resolution in December on combating the glorification of Nazism and neo-Nazism."

Oh, you mean the resolution pushed by Putin as a mechanism to attack Ukraine and the Baltic states. The US also voted against the resolution on the basis that it was an attack on free speech.

"The UN vote being followed by a torchlight parade through Kiev commemorating the birthday of wartime Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera."

In a city of 3 million, the parade gathered a crowd of a few hundred. Again proof, which you constantly ignore, of how little support these movements have in Ukraine.

"The mandating of the Ukrainian language in response to the demands of the Banderites and other nationalist right-wing groups."

Ukraine thinks the Ukrainian language should be the default language in their country. Oh, the humanity!! While the policy might have been supported by the far-right, it was generally popular.

Bronwyn, I can't decide if you are purveyor of Russian propaganda or a hapless victim of it.

Finally if you are so concerned about Nazis, why aren't you complaining of the 50000 or so Nazis in Russia. It is estimated that 50% of all avowed Nazis world-wide are in Russia. If Putin is so concerned why isn't he routing them out of his society.

The reason is obvious but I'll say it anyway. The Nazis in Ukraine are an excuse to cover Putin's ambitions. They aren't the reason for his expansionism.

mhaze

<< Bronwyn, I can't decide if you are purveyor of Russian propaganda or a hapless victim of it. >>

I am neither.

<< Finally if you are so concerned about Nazis, why aren't you complaining of the 50000 or so Nazis in Russia. It is estimated that 50% of all avowed Nazis world-wide are in Russia. >>

Perhaps you can provide some substantive evidence. I've looked briefly and can’t find any.

<< The Nazis in Ukraine are an excuse to cover Putin's ambitions. They aren't the reason for his expansionism. >>

The Neo-Nazis in Ukraine are not an excuse. They’re very real. They're walking all over Zelensky and have been killing ethnic Russians in the Donbas region since the 2014 coup. The following article clearly details their widespread presence and influence within Ukraine.

'How Zelensky Made Peace With Neo-Nazis’
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/04/how-zelensky-made-peace-with-neo-nazis

And BTW, Putin’s move into Ukraine is not being driven by ‘expansionism’. He’s not interested in taking territory. He’s acting strategically to destroy the military threat to Russia of US-led NATO and to end the Neo-Nazi persecution of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

The following article provides a good summary of the relationship between the US and Russia since the fall of the soviet Union. Knowing the history helps make sense of the present.

'Is the Ukraine 'Crisis' Just Another US Charade?’
https://www.novinite.com/articles/213774/Is+the+Ukraine+%27Crisis%27+Just+Another+US+Charade%3F