Eastward expansion of the EU? There is increasing talk of the EU being on the skids, with a good part of it relying on Russia for energy; and NATO ain't what it used to be. The UN is useless because Russia has veto rights in the Security Council. Putin must be feeling pretty cocky. Only a naif would talk about "Comic Convention". There are no jokes to be had in this situation, except the one about Germany.

The Germany SDP connection provides much grist for thought. Scholz is a long time member of the German Socialists- dovetails well with Hilary Clinton's Democratic Party and their activities in the Ukraine- seemingly a more natural partner with Biden than Trump- yet Scholz has made comments supporting more Traditionalist positions- seemingly slightly less communist than Merkel- but German politics is fascinating in it's complexity- the coalition for example having a Christian component. Of course the region between Europe and Russia has seen changes since WWI and WWII and The Cold War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Scholz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

If Germany and the EU stopped buying gas from Russia and replaced that with locally produced biogas. And very doable, Putin would get the only wake up call he will take notice of! As it is energy sales alone that keeps Russia afloat and the source of Putin's personal wealth and influence. Apart from that the western world needs to power on with MSR thorium and all alternative energy derivatives that then become available along with several huge medical upsides!
Alan B.

Putin's power comes from energy sales to the west! And it's those energy sales that are financing this current military action/activity/ sabre rattling! Has anyone bought less gas or oil from Russia? If there were no sales to the west, Putin would not be able to support the current military action!

And lost on western leaders unable or unwilling to transition away from fossil fuel! And the influence of the fossil fuel energy barons. Of which Putin is one!

Old king coal was a merry old soul and a merry old soul was he!

The more we change the more same we become! We are stuck where we are because we allowed ourselves to become the servants of the fossil fuel, energy barons! And way too dependent on them and their energy provision!

NATO should grow a spine and welcome the Ukraine into the fold of western nations, now, today!

Which would mean any attack on the Ukraine would be an attack on the entire western alliance. which could start test some of its nuclear missiles! The bellicose yap, yap hasn't stopped much but a cruise missile in Mr Putin's front door when he is at home just might? And if that is what it takes to end this war before it starts, it must be contenanced!
Alan B.

The US was able to get rid of Osama Bin Laden.
Surely they have the capability to get rid of Putin?
Think of the lives that would be saved.

Just a thought.

Ok that was fun.

Now to get serious about how to stop Putin.

Time magazine has a great article on the subject
that's worth a read:

http://time.com/6143645/how-to-stop-putin-invastion-ukraine/

Germany most important? I don't get it.

When I see a claim in a report such as this which is egregiously wrong, I have to doubt the accuracy of the rest of the report.

The author wrote: " When this happened in the 1990s [ie the fall of the USSR and its empire], Russia was given firm assurances that Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia would not become part of NATO. What then happened was that each became a member of the EU and then each became a member of the NATO."

In fact, the assurances were given prior to the fall of the USSR. Russia wasn't given assurances because Russia wasn't a country then - it was a part of the USSR. The only party on the table then was East Germany and the assurance was that it, and only it, would join the EU/NATO because all other states were still under the control of the Kremlin.

Its a rather important point. When an author gets that detail wrong, it makes me want to check everything else he says. (If he opined that the sun rises in the east, I'd want verification!!).

Still the rest of the article is interesting. The notion that the expansion of the EU revolves around Berlin isn't entirely out of the question. But it only makes sense when the weakness of the US leadership is factored in. The EU/NATO still relies utterly on the US. When the US has strong clear leadership (2016-20) it calls the shots. But currently that's not the case.

It's also partly why Downing St is trying to play an outsized role in the whole issue - because of the perceived need for the west to have some sensible leadership which can't be provided by the kiddies in Washington.

I keep coming back to it, but the debacle in Kabul changed the world. The legacy media have successfully managed to memory-hole that disaster. But the capitals around the world absorbed its lessons - that the US is a paper-tiger under its current leadership - and are acting accordingly.

How to stop Putin invasion Ukraine?

Umm... its a bit late, he just shock and awed the place...
http://liveuamap.com/

But you can keep talking it up and maybe we can get the nuclear war started.

I support Russia in this, the West was the one who caused ALL THIS when it supported Ukrainian Right Sector Nazis and Sbovoda to overthrow the democratically elected President of Ukraine in the Maidan.

http://youtu.be/p2AOoE7PFJI

USA is not going to risk Russians shooting at Americans.
- And Ukraine's not a part of NATO yet.

Putin can have a good old time, and no-ones going to stop him.

- Biden needs help to wipe his own bum.

I'm glad the people of Donetsk and Luhansk are free from 8 years of terror, and hopefully an averted WWIII by keeping US nukes off of Russia's front doorstep.

This is the best chance to avoid things getting a whole lot worse in the future.

Explosives, missiles envelop Kyiv, Kharkiv.
This is just the beginning. Russians have
captured Chernobyl nuclear power plant.
And the former US President Donald Trump
has a lot to say.

He's for Putin who Trump declares made a
"genius" move by sending in the "strongest
peace force I've ever seen to the area."
"very savvy."

And this from a possible future US President?

"Bozhe, dopomozhy nam."
(God help us).

Foxy as usual misunderstands Trump - utterly misunderstands.

Saying Putin's move to send in 'peacekeepers' was smart isn't the same as supporting that move. Trump was simply pointing out that Putin had, yet again, out-smarted Biden and the whole of the swamp in Washington.

Of coarse, Biden et al should have anticipated this as one option for Putin and been prepared for it. But they weren't because Putin had out-thought and out-smarted them.

Trump pointing that out doesn't equal supporting Putin. Unfortunately people like Foxy have this very juvenile view that if you don't hate with the same vehemence as she does, then you must be a supporter. It seems to elude them that you can oppose a view or an action while at the same time recognising it as being clever.

This is why Putin would never have pulled this crap if Trump hadn't been robbed in 2020. Trump understood the rules of raw power as played by Putin. Trump would never have been out-smarted the way Biden has been. When Putin tried to pull this rubbish in Syria, Trump very much put his back in his box.

And of coarse, if the US energy revolution hadn't been throttled by Biden, if oil was still $50/barrel Putin wouldn't be in a position to do what he's doing.

Unfortunately for the world there are way too many people who don't understand any of this and that means it'll happen again.

mhaze is an avid Trump supporter folks.

The man can do no wrong in mhaze's eyes.

Hopefully his is a minority viewpoint.

What's happening in the Ukraine is horrible.
And Putin's attacks are not a "peace-keeping force"
despite what Mr Trump says and how mhaze tries to
deny those comments.

Again Foxy, you utterly utterly misunderstand. Trump's comments about Putin's genius move was related exactly and solely about Putin declaring the Donbass regions as independent states requiring a peace-keeping force. The comments were made prior to the later invasion.

That you can't see or even begin to understand this is both sad and entirely expected.

Putin's moves are entirely based on the fact that Biden, the US and the west in general are presently weak and unable to mount any form of resistance. This is a complete reversal to the situation when Trump was in power. Just throwing a tantrum and whining that you don't want that to be true, doesn't change the facts - at least not in the adult world which you should try to join at some point.

Just in terms of Biden being out-witted by Putin, here is Biden's erudite and clear-headed response when asked about it....

http://rumble.com/vvlhql-biden-picks-his-teeth-and-stares-blankly-while-reporters-ask-questions.html

Posted by Chris Lewis- Germany most important? I don't get it.

Answer- Why don't you get it Chris Lewis?? Do you see things differently?

mhaze

Whether Trump or Biden was president is totally irrelevant to Putin's resort to military action in Ukraine.

Every US president during the time Putin has been in power has used NATO to militarily threaten and contain Russia. Obama and Biden have been the worst, but Trump's presidency didn't result in any easing whatever of NATO's stranglehold on Russia.

Obama and Biden were instrumental in fomenting the 2014 coup in Ukraine which deposed the elected pro-Russian leader and installed a US-puppet government. The US intention was to have Ukraine join NATO and thus complete its military encirclement of Russia.

Since the coup, Ukraine's economy has nose-dived and the country is now riddled with neo-Nazis who have been threatening and killing the citizens of the Eastern provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk. They have ignored the Minsk agreement signed by Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France, which very sensibly would have allowed these provinces to remain in Ukraine whilst maintaining economic and language ties to Russia.

When the USSR was being dismantled, the West promised Russia that NATO would not move east, a promise which successive US presidents have broken again and again. Putin has consistently tried to engage in diplomacy with western leaders in order to halt this military aggression, but apart from Macron and Merkel, has been ignored. His recent and very reasonable treaty suggestions which, if enacted would have restored peace to Europe, were flatly and arrogantly rejected by the US. There was absolutely no attempt offered to negotiate and compromise in any way.

The Russians in eastern Ukraine have long begged Putin to save them from the neo-Nazi assault they've endured since 2014 and which has only been exacerbated in recent weeks as the US has recklessly poured weapons into Ukraine. Putin's long slow military build-up was a warning to the US and its Ukraine puppet government. It was a warning they ignored.

No-one wants this war, least of all Russia. But enough is enough. Why should Russia stand by and have its sovereignty, its borders and the lives of its people threatened by US imperialist aggression?

So what do we call it when the US does this?
Didn't they go into IRAQ for WMDs?
Did we forget that one?

Probably just wanted to steal all his gold and oil.
And oh yeh "We're going to get rid of that evil dictator and bring democracy!"

At least Putin had valid reasons
- And the US started it when they overthrew Yanukovych.

I still support Russia.
The Donetsk and Luhansk regions had every right under UN law and every reason after the US (Obama, Biden and Soros, Clinton, Nuland) armed Right Sector Neo Nazis and Svoboda to conduct an overthrow of the democratically elected leader and take over the country.

Russia and China have every reason to consider the Wests intentions hostile when it openly states it wants to get rid of autocratic countries and conducts coloured revolutions.

The entire news is just a convenient pack of lies.

Bronwyn,

“Whether Trump or Biden was president is totally irrelevant to Putin's resort to military action in Ukraine.”

So, in your estimation its just coincidence that Putin sought to address what he considers the Ukraine problem in the last years of the Obama regime and the first year of the Biden regime, but was silent while Trump was in charge? Quite the coincidence. I think its more accurate to understand that Putin knows who can be pushed around and who can’t.
____________________

“….used NATO to militarily threaten and contain Russia.”

Would it be churlish to point out that you only need to contain countries that want to expand?
____________________________________

“The US intention was to have Ukraine join NATO”.
So why didn’t they do it?
_____________________________

“now riddled with neo-Nazis “
Now you’re just unthinkingly regurgitating Russia propaganda/misinformation. There is no evidence that the Ukrainian leadership are Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. Putin is just using the language of Antifa to justify his war.
________________________________

“the West promised Russia that NATO would not move east”
False. They made some unwritten assurances to the USSR. Russia wasn’t a country then. It was before states like Poland were free to make their own choices, being, as they were, conquered peoples. Is it your view that countries like Poland who suffered 50 years of Russian oppression, don’t have the right to seek outside protection from a repeated conquest?

__________________________________

“Why should Russia stand by and have its sovereignty, its borders and the lives of its people threatened by US imperialist aggression?”

Russian borders aren’t threatened. Nor is its sovereignty. NATO has repeatedly and constantly said Ukraine can’t join NATO. If there was any move to put NATO troops in Kiev, then you might have a point. But absent that, we see that you are just an unthinking apologist for Kremlin expansionism.

mhaze, are you kidding me?

>>'now riddled with neo-Nazis'
Now you’re just unthinkingly regurgitating Russia propaganda/misinformation. There is no evidence that the Ukrainian leadership are Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. Putin is just using the language of Antifa to justify his war. <<

Try digging a little bit.
Look up Right Sector, Svoboda, Stefan Bandera and Azov Brigade
Azov Brigade is a legitimate part of Ukrainian military, fyi.
Do you all just think I just make stuff up?
You must.

Do you think I'm lying when I say the US conducted the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected leader as well?

You're all off your chops, living in a fantasy world if you don't actually look at what happened in Ukraine over the last 8 years and how it came to be this way.

http://tass.com/world/983892
http://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/
http://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/

Did we forget this?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine-NATO_relations

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1992.[1] Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.[6] The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO.[7] However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.[8] On 21 February 2019, the Constitution of Ukraine was amended, the norms on the strategic course of Ukraine for membership in the European Union and NATO are enshrined in the preamble of the Basic Law, three articles and transitional provisions.[9][10]

At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its own future and foreign policy, of course without outside interference.[11] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO, as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do.[12]

According to polls conducted between 2005 and 2013, Ukrainian public support of NATO membership remained low.[13][14][15][16][17][18][19] However, since the Russo-Ukrainian War and Annexation of Crimea, public support for Ukrainian membership in NATO has risen greatly. Since June 2014, polls showed that about 50% of those asked supported Ukrainian NATO membership.[20][21][22][23] Some 69% of Ukrainians want to join NATO, according to a June 2017 poll by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation, compared to 28% support in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power.[24]

mhaze

<< So, in your estimation its just coincidence that Putin sought to address what he considers the Ukraine problem in the last years of the Obama regime and the first year of the Biden regime, but was silent while Trump was in charge? >>

The 2014 coup was instigated by the Obama/Biden government, so Putin was dragged into that. The timing was not his. Since then, Putin has sought to open diplomatic channels with the West and to negotiate an agreement. These efforts culminated in his written treaty proposals in December 2021, most of which the Biden government flatly refused to consider. Having exhausted all other avenues, Putin has now exercised this last resort military action. His waiting until now had nothing to do with the perceived strength or weakness of either Trump or Biden.

<< Would it be churlish to point out that you only need to contain countries that want to expand? >>

Russia is not trying to expand. It’s defending its own territory, as is its sovereign right to do so. It's resisting having its borders militarily surrounded and threatened by NATO ... again, as is its right. Russia does not want to annexe Ukraine. Its intent is solely to demilitarise and de-nazify its unstable and threatening neighbour.

<< There is no evidence that the Ukrainian leadership are Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. >>

I didn’t say the leaders were Nazis. I said the country was riddled with neo-nazis. The Ukrainian leaders since 2014 have been too weak and too disinterested to do anything about it. As pointed out by Armchair Critic, there are many disparate neo-nazi groups operating in Ukraine, some of the main ones being the Right Sector and Azov Brigade. They've been ruthlessly killing Russians in Ukraine since 2014. And yes, good advice of AC,s, do Google Stefan Bandera.

mhaze

<< They made some unwritten assurances to the USSR. Russia wasn’t a country then. >>

There was no formal written treaty, but the promises were made. It was clearly stated at meetings in 1990 between Russia, the US and West European nations that there would be no eastwards expansion of NATO. There’s an archived collection in Washington of thirty crucial documents which prove beyond doubt that the promises were made by multiple western leaders to Gorbachev as the USSR was being dismantled. This promise ... so critical to Russia’s safety and sovereign independence ... has been broken ... and this is at the heart of the current crisis. Ukraine has also broken the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements, which has been another heavy blow for Russia. These were all important agreements, all aimed at achieving peace in Europe.

Russia is not the evil aggressor it’s being painted to be in the Western mainstream media. Putin has tried to achieve peace in Europe through diplomatic means. He’s been thwarted by America at every turn. NATO and Russia need to sit down and negotiate a peace treaty. We need detente in Europe. Continually escalating aggressive measures against Russia will have world-threatening consequences.

>>“the West promised Russia that NATO would not move east”
False. They made some unwritten assurances to the USSR. Russia wasn’t a country then. It was before states like Poland were free to make their own choices, being, as they were, conquered peoples. Is it your view that countries like Poland who suffered 50 years of Russian oppression, don’t have the right to seek outside protection from a repeated conquest?<<

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

>>Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”<<

- Kind-of unrelated -
I heard one of the Maidan snipers came clean a few years back and said he was worked for the US
Not sure if it's true or not, and I haven't looked into the details as yet.

The Ukraine can thank Germany's wind/solar obsession for the timing of the invasion. With Germany just shutting down half of its nuclear reactors and Europe in winter, Putin knows they wont risk having the gas shut off. So its well wishes while they stand by and idly watch the destruction of a sovereign nation. Warsaw WWII all over again.

1. Re the assertions of Nazis in Ukraine.

Yes there are neo-Nazis there. Does that justify invasion? There are neo-Nazis in Germany. In Poland. France. Britain. The USA. Here. Does that justify military intervention? There are Nazis in Russia. Well let's go get 'em.

But are they important or influential in Ukraine? Not in the slightest. Putin's claims are mere window dressing to naked aggression. That they are believed by Russian apologists or the deliberately ignorant (hi, AC) is intended.

The neo-Nazis groups in Ukraine are a very small minority with no power. In the last election, Ukraine voted in a Jew. Nazis? The ultra-nationalist and neo-Nazis groups formed a coalition to get seats in the Rada (parliament). Of the 450 seats they won....none, nada, zero, nix, nought, nikto. They have no support in Ukraine. They are a phantom Putin uses to justify war. Falling for it is instructive.

2. The promises made in 1990.
Yes, promises were made. But circumstances change. For example, Russia made promises in 1994 to honour Ukraine's borders in return for them giving up their nukes. But Russia has broken those promises. Why? Because circumstances change.
Circumstances changed. After the promises were made (to the USSR, not Russia - a distinction that seems to elude AC) the wall came down, the Soviet Empire dissolved followed by the Soviet Union itself. Circumstances changed.

Again I ask, do you think Poland doesn't have the right to seek NATO's protection from Russia. Russia has invaded Poland 3 times in the last 100 years wiping out millions of Poles in the process. Should Poland be required to just wait patiently for the next invasion?

Armchair Critic

<< I heard one of the Maidan snipers came clean a few years back and said he was worked for the US. Not sure if it's true or not, and I haven't looked into the details as yet. >>

There is indeed compelling evidence to support this claim, but of course it will never be made public … well, certainly not in the Western mainstream media.

<< In the early days of fighting in Eastern Ukraine, about 40 American mercenaries traveled to join the fight on either side as Buzzfeed News reported. Among those was Brian Boyenger, a U.S. army veteran from North Carolina, who is alleged to have recruited Georgian mercenaries during the Maidan Square protests to carry out black-flag terrorist attacks and sniper killings that could be blamed on Viktor Yanukovych’s security forces in order to discredit them. >>

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2021/07/29/our-mission-is-to-lead-the-white-races-of-the-world-in-a-final-crusadeagainst-semite-led-untermenschen-subhumans

https://gordonhahn.com/2017/11/17/foreign-involvement-in-february-2014-maidan-terrorist-sniper-attack

mhaze

<<The neo-Nazis groups in Ukraine are a very small minority with no power. >>

This is not correct. They hold enormous sway in Ukraine and they've been supported (and exploited) by the US.

<<Azov it should be noted is not some fringe group within the Ukraine, but is supported at the highest levels of the Ukrainian government. >>

See the CovertAction article I've linked to above.

Bronwyn wrote: "Russia is not trying to expand. It’s defending its own territory, as is its sovereign right to do so. It's resisting having its borders militarily surrounded and threatened by NATO ... again, as is its right. Russia does not want to annexe Ukraine. Its intent is solely to demilitarise and de-nazify its unstable and threatening neighbour."

Russia wants to incorporate the DonBass into its territory. That's expansion. We don't know what it wants to do with Ukraine but at the least it wants to make it a client state. That's expansionist.
Again, a nation that isn't expansionist shouldn't be concerned about being contained.

Russia isn't defending its territory. No one, absolutely no one is threatening its territory. Ukraine isn't threatening Russia except that if it is ever allowed to be successful then it will live as an unwanted example of the failure of the Russia ruling elite.

"They [the neo-Nazis] hold enormous sway in Ukraine...."

Yes so much sway that they managed to win not one seat in the most recent elections. </sarc>

I get that you need to believe Putin's Nazi justifications, but they are a mere pretext for invasion. They aren't a real threat to either Russia or mainstream Ukrainian society.

Things don't seem to be going as planned for the Russians. Significant resistance by the Ukrainians with the consequent loss of life and materiel.

There is no way the Ukrainian army can hold out for long against the Russians but anything but a clean and quick victory is a disaster for Putin.

Zalensky, the man many thought a fool as a president, and supposedly the man the Russian most want, instead of going into hiding as expected, has decided to stay in Kiev to fight and raise morale. Not quite Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches..." but still pretty impressive. Equally, former president Poroshenko, has taken a gun and joined the civil defence.

Putin, who rejected all peace offers, now is prepared to talk. He could be bluffing but he could be blinking. Time'll tell.

____________________________________________________________________

In other news, the US said they couldn't cut Russia out of the SWIFT system because Germany and Italy are opposed to it. They've both come out and denied that.

Perhaps Biden wants to keep the Russians in SWIFT because that's the only way Hunter can continue to get his salary.... http://nypost.com/2020/09/23/hunter-biden-received-3-5m-from-russian-billionaire-report/

______________________________________________________________________

The Chinese (and the Taiwanese) are watching this very closely. The fate of Taiwan may rest on the fate of Ukraine. Its now said the Chinese have been helping the Russians to prepare for this for months.

From the NYT..."Americans presented Chinese officials with intelligence on Russia’s troop buildup in hopes that President Xi Jinping would step in, but were repeatedly rebuffed." China then shared the information with the Russians.

The Soviet Regime - a blood-stained machine
Which murdered millions in simple routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries were not given a voice

In our history books we've been told
Of the many deported, tortured, and sold
People were arrested and shipped to Siberia
To the Russian Tundra and its interior

Countries suffered a massive loss
Of lives buried in the permafrost
Putin like Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind

Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response
The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error

The world must link hands as others have done
Bring down from within for this fight to be won
Russians must show they won't tolerate
Going back to the past, of fear and hate

Russians must say, 'We want peace not war'
And proclaim very loudly that war they abhor
The draconian systems must not return
There are lessons there from which we can learn

The world must unite and be made aware
This is a fight that we all should share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Only then can we sovereign nations relax

mhaze

<< Russia wants to incorporate the DonBass into its territory. That's expansion. We don't know what it wants to do with Ukraine but at the least it wants to make it a client state. That's expansionist. >>

Russia’s objectives have been enunciated clearly and unambiguously. They are very specifically the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine. Ukraine's Western-supplied military infrastructure is being targeted and destroyed and its ubiquitous Neo-nazis are being systematically weeded out. Ukrainian civilians are being given every opportunity to escape harm and the Ukrainian military are being encouraged to surrender and go home. The Donbas region is being protected, but there is no plan to permanently occupy the rest of Ukraine or any of its neighbours. This military intervention is all about protecting Russia and Russians. It is not expansionist.

<< Again, a nation that isn't expansionist shouldn't be concerned about being contained. >>

I can’t think of a nation anywhere which would accept having its borders surrounded by foreign military bases with missiles pointed their way. This is exactly what NATO is doing to Russia. Imagine if the roles were reversed and Russia organised an alliance to surround America. All hell would break loose. Why should Russia have to live under the constant fear of military attack? What gives America the right to do this to another country?

<< I get that you need to believe Putin's Nazi justifications, but they are a mere pretext for invasion. They aren't a real threat to either Russia or mainstream Ukrainian society. >>

The neo-nazi threat is very real. You obviously didn’t read the link I posted. It’s clear I’m wasting my time when you won't even look at the evidence I provide.

I’m a pacifist. I’m deeply saddened by this military intervention and can only hope it ends soon and with minimal casualties. I do, however, understand what has led to it. Unfortunately, most in the West do not. They accept without question the simplistic narrative of Putin as the evil and unprovoked aggressor and seem unwilling to delve any deeper.

Bronwyn,

"The neo-nazi threat is very real. You obviously didn’t read the link I posted. It’s clear I’m wasting my time when you won't even look at the evidence I provide."

I did read your link, I just wasn't impressed with it. Unsupported assertion on top of unsupported assertion doesn't work for me. I don't deny that there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine and in the Azov brigade. I already agreed with that in earlier posts. But there are neo-Nazis in pretty much all countries. Its said there are 70000 in Russia. Why isn't Putin moving against them?

Your assert without evidence that the neo-Nazis in Ukraine have out-sized evidence. The best evidence for that claim would be electoral support. But in the most recent vote their electoral support was effectively non-existent.

WHY do you ignore that?

"I can’t think of a nation anywhere which would accept having its borders surrounded by foreign military bases...."

Surrounded? That's rubbish. The vast majority of Russia is surrounded by friends or client states. Again, there was no prospect of NATO putting troops or armaments in Ukraine. This is just a furphy to justify aggression. And if this is their major concern, what of Estonia and Latvia?

"Why should Russia have to live under the constant fear of military attack?"

If they have such a fear (and I doubt it, its certainly not true of the Russians I know) then its entirely in their head. There is no western military threat against Russia. The west has been bending over backwards to accommodate Russia and Russian sensibilities eg Nord Stream 2. If the west truly sought to confront Russia, Ukraine would already be in NATO.

Things continue to go poorly for the Russian military. Certainly, the Ukrainians are mounting a defence that is surprising the Russians as well as the so-called experts in the west.

Kiev, according to Russian planning, would have already fallen by now and a puppet government would be forming. But that’s not happening. Its now reported that the Russian supply lines are straining under the delay with fuel and replacement armaments being in short supply. Even more surprisingly, its now confirmed that the Ukrainians have hit military targets in Russia and that the Turks have closed the Dardanelles to Russian shipping. Russia has mistakenly (?) hit shipping belonging to Japan and Turkey.

Russian attempts to secure airports near Kiev to allow for the quick movement of troops, have failed. It’s reported that several planes of elite troops have been downed and troops who did manage to land have been isolated. Its clear Russia has failed to achieve air superiority over Kiev.

The US has offered to evacuate Zelensky, but he refused…” I need ammunition, not a ride”. The guy’s reputation grows daily.

The west continues to flounder under equivocal leadership. SWIFT bans are on then off. Biden now admits that the sanctions were never going to deter Putin from invasion, having said the opposite a week ago. The legacy media pretend not to notice. (A US survey shows 62% of voters think Putin wouldn’t have done this against Trump - the legacy media pretend otherwise).

Other interesting developments:
Protests increase in Russia itself.
Marco Rubio hints a undisclosed health problem with Putin
Anger grows over Chinese duplicity in giving US intelligence to Russia and the US’s foolishness in trusting China with that intelligence in the first place.
Elon Musk, friend of freedom, has repurposed Starlink over Ukraine and is gifting receivers to stop Russians from cutting Ukraine’s internet

Dear mhaze,

You wrote:

“So, in your estimation its just coincidence that Putin sought to address what he considers the Ukraine problem in the last years of the Obama regime and the first year of the Biden regime, but was silent while Trump was in charge? Quite the coincidence. I think its more accurate to understand that Putin knows who can be pushed around and who can’t.”

My goodness what revisionist rubbish.

The reason why Putin was largely silent when Trump was in charge was because he largely got what he wanted.

Trump pulls out of Syria and the Russians get the American bases.

Trump lifts a number of the Obama sanctions on Russia that were imposed because of Russia’s invasion of Crimea.

It took Congress stepping in to impose targeted sanctions on the Russians.

Trump said he believed Putin over the FBI reports of Russian interference in the US election.

Trump gets rid of the head of the investigating body looking into that interference.

And who can forget it was the phone call to the current Ukrainian leader which got Trump impeached. The one in which he threatened to withhold arms unless Biden's son was investigated.

Trump was clearly Putin's puppy.

Dear Steele,

And even today - mhaze is saying that we "misunderstand"
what Trump really means when he calls Putin's actions
"savvy" "smart" and "genius." Trump's not at fault.
We are. We just don't understand the man. He does.

How can anyone argue with logic like that

mhaze

<< I did read your link, I just wasn't impressed with it. Unsupported assertion on top of unsupported assertion doesn't work for me. >>

There is very little in that article that is ‘unsupported'. It is comprehensively linked and footnoted and a large proportion of the text is backed up with pertinent photographic material. The author is highly qualified and experienced and has had many books and articles published on US foreign policy.

My sources are solid and reliable. From the little I’ve seen of yours, they appear to be little more than mindlessly regurgitated Western propaganda. Anyone who believes that Trump is the answer to the world’s problems is seriously deluded and has gained their information from some dodgy material.

We obviously inform ourselves from very different sources and as a result have very different perspectives. We will just have to agree to disagree.

But I must say I've at least had some more respectful and worthwhile engagement with you than I often manage to achieve on this site!

The NATO issue has been over-egged and past history belies Putin's claims e.g. when Romania and Bulgaria joined NATO Putin had no response?

However, NATO and the EU are proxies, especially the latter, for what Putin's Russia shares with (till recent weeks) both US GOP and UK Tories, along with their ecosystem of Trumpers, fossil fuels, think tanks, Fox, white nationalists, alt/far right, Christian conservatives etc.

They have a pathological aversion to how the EU and Europe are threats to Anglosphere conservatism and old commerce or industry, and Putin's Russia?

What are the threats to Putin, GOP, Tories & LNP? Climate science, constraints on fossil fuels, renewables, liberal democracy, diversity, empowered/educated citizens, financial transparency and open society.

Bronwyn,

"My sources are solid and reliable."

This is, I think, the third or fourth time I've said that I agree with your sources that there are Nazis in Ukraine, in places like the Azov Brigade. Your sources are solid and reliable, within reason, on that point. Where they, and therefore you, unravel is that they go from that fact to assert that said Nazis have outsized influence in Ukraine and on the Ukrainian government. They, and you, offer no evidence for that because there is no evidence for that.

I've also asked you several times to consider the results of the last Ukrainian election where these Nazis who you think have significant influence in Ukraine, failed to seal even one single seat in a 450 seat parliament.

Its instructive that you simple ignore this point - pretend it doesn't exist. Ignoring data because it doesn't fit your theory is the opposite of scholarship.

Foxy wrote: "mhaze is saying that we "misunderstand"
what Trump really means when he calls Putin's actions
"savvy" "smart" and "genius."

I did say you misunderstood the point of his comments. I explained why.

That you continue to make these claims makes me now think it wasn't a misunderstanding on your part but a deliberate misinterpretation. Naughty naughty.

SR,

"My goodness what revisionist rubbish."

Not revisionist SR. Merely a corrective to your fables.

"Trump said he believed Putin over the FBI reports of Russian interference in the US election."

Well yes he did. Why? Well because Putin was right and the FBI wrong. Trump knew that. Those of us not wedded to the collusion malarkey know it. Those interested in the truth knew it after the release of the Mueller report. Even the hold-outs now know it as we see Democrats charged with lying to the FBI about it, fabricating evidence, spying on Trump all while in the pay of Hilary. Catch up.

"Trump pulls out of Syria and the Russians get the American bases."

Trump pulled out of Syria because there was no reason to be there. On the way out he ordered the destruction of an entire Russian battalion. Not exactly the work of someone owned by Putin.

So Putin stopped invading countries because he got all he wanted from Trump.

Really?

Were they thankful that that Trump thankfully flooded the world with price-crashing oil or when he killed Russian mercenaries in Syria?

Was Putin content that the United States got out of the missile deal so favourable to the Kremlin? Was he happy that Trump sold U.S. offensive weapons to Ukraine or when Trump upped the U.S. military budget, or jawboned NATO into spending another $100 billion on defence? "Did Putin clap when Trump killed Soleimani and Baghdadi, and bombed ISIS out of existence? "

"If Trump were the Manchurian candidate that people keep wanting to believe that he is, here are some of the things he’d be doing:

Limiting fracking as much as he possibly could
Blocking oil and gas pipelines
Opening negotiations for major nuclear arms reductions
Cutting U.S. military spending
Trying to tamp down tensions with Russia’s ally Iran."

Who did those things? Obama. Who's doing most of them now - the clown in the White House.

mhaze

<< Its instructive that you simple ignore this point - pretend it doesn't exist. Ignoring data because it doesn't fit your theory is the opposite of scholarship. >>

I wasn’t ignoring data. I felt I had responded to your point adequately, that’s all.

I’m not familiar with the background and credentials of the Ukrainian Government and I’m not interested enough to delve any further. As I’ve already pointed out though, I do know that the Zelensky government is either too weak to suppress the rightwing extremists infesting the country or it doesn’t want to.

Whatever the make-up of the current government, there is definite evidence that it is more than willing to accommodate a strong neo-nazi presence within the country, some of which includes:

1. Ukraine voting against the UN resolution in December on combating the glorification of Nazism and neo-Nazism.

2. The UN vote being followed by a torchlight parade through Kiev commemorating the birthday of wartime Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera.

3. The mandating of the Ukrainian language in response to the demands of the Banderites and other nationalist right-wing groups.

4. Radical nationalists and neo-Nazi militias being integrated into the Ukraine military.

5. The Ukraine government continuing to circumvent the Minsk agreement and allowing extreme-right militia groups to wage war against the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Only a rightwing government that sympathises with neo-Nazi ideology would allow any of the above to happen.

Bronwyn,

The far right failed to achieve in one seat in the Ukraine parliament despite active efforts to do so. That is indicative of a movement that makes lots of noise but has no influence.

"Ukraine voting against the UN resolution in December on combating the glorification of Nazism and neo-Nazism."

Oh, you mean the resolution pushed by Putin as a mechanism to attack Ukraine and the Baltic states. The US also voted against the resolution on the basis that it was an attack on free speech.

"The UN vote being followed by a torchlight parade through Kiev commemorating the birthday of wartime Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera."

In a city of 3 million, the parade gathered a crowd of a few hundred. Again proof, which you constantly ignore, of how little support these movements have in Ukraine.

"The mandating of the Ukrainian language in response to the demands of the Banderites and other nationalist right-wing groups."

Ukraine thinks the Ukrainian language should be the default language in their country. Oh, the humanity!! While the policy might have been supported by the far-right, it was generally popular.

Bronwyn, I can't decide if you are purveyor of Russian propaganda or a hapless victim of it.

Finally if you are so concerned about Nazis, why aren't you complaining of the 50000 or so Nazis in Russia. It is estimated that 50% of all avowed Nazis world-wide are in Russia. If Putin is so concerned why isn't he routing them out of his society.

The reason is obvious but I'll say it anyway. The Nazis in Ukraine are an excuse to cover Putin's ambitions. They aren't the reason for his expansionism.

mhaze

<< Bronwyn, I can't decide if you are purveyor of Russian propaganda or a hapless victim of it. >>

I am neither.

<< Finally if you are so concerned about Nazis, why aren't you complaining of the 50000 or so Nazis in Russia. It is estimated that 50% of all avowed Nazis world-wide are in Russia. >>

Perhaps you can provide some substantive evidence. I've looked briefly and can’t find any.

<< The Nazis in Ukraine are an excuse to cover Putin's ambitions. They aren't the reason for his expansionism. >>

The Neo-Nazis in Ukraine are not an excuse. They’re very real. They're walking all over Zelensky and have been killing ethnic Russians in the Donbas region since the 2014 coup. The following article clearly details their widespread presence and influence within Ukraine.

'How Zelensky Made Peace With Neo-Nazis’
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/04/how-zelensky-made-peace-with-neo-nazis

And BTW, Putin’s move into Ukraine is not being driven by ‘expansionism’. He’s not interested in taking territory. He’s acting strategically to destroy the military threat to Russia of US-led NATO and to end the Neo-Nazi persecution of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

The following article provides a good summary of the relationship between the US and Russia since the fall of the soviet Union. Knowing the history helps make sense of the present.

'Is the Ukraine 'Crisis' Just Another US Charade?’
https://www.novinite.com/articles/213774/Is+the+Ukraine+%27Crisis%27+Just+Another+US+Charade%3F