People are prepared to surrender rights and freedoms to Big Brother to protect them from something that is not the worst virus ever, and one that 99.9% of them can protect themselves from with common sense, and get over quickly.

As one of the vulnerable, I am vaccinated; and I stay away from the herd, once a week at the supermarket, walking every day on my own, and avoiding mass entertainment, no eating out. Simple.

So, "passports" don't worry me. But, I regard them as serious assault on democracy, and quite stupid, given that the people who want to enforce them are the same ones telling us that vaccination doesn't stop infection.

Just question on the side: How many posters actually know anyone without Covid? Personally, that is.

With Covid, not without it:).

I do not agree that any person's rights are infringed by vaccine passports! After all, vaccinations remain, as a personal choice!

And any business or commercial venue is entitled as they've always had. Have a right to refuse service! And that right could include refusing to serve the unvaccinated. For example, this business reserves the right to refuse service! Others, this venue reserves the right to refuse entry!

Some want that right to refuse removed! And this is the only infringement of rights that are threatened by those who remain non-compliant!

Moreover, this is the same non-compliant demographic that makes a mockery of the sacrifice of lockdowns!

Who seem to think or believe, that their right to unfettered freedom trumps our right to remain in the land of the living! For the predetermined, natural term!

It's all well and good to cry, go and get vaccinated when the demand outstrips supply! As for the danger of clots? I have been struck by lightning and spent months in hospital getting treatment with clot busters and anticoagulants. Followed by years on blood thinners. Which thankfully ended before the cerebral haemorrhage.

I've been drowned, shot at and shelled, buried alive, had multiple pulmonary embolisms. The most common cause of sudden death in the older demographic! And a massive haemorrhagic stroke followed by a diagnosis of brain cancer! And the news that the statical evidence meant that life expectancy was around fourteen months.

I've had six birthdays since then. And believe, I have some unfinished business/contributions to make and the reason I'm still here! Of this, I am quite certain!
Alan B.

I still have my yellow "Vaccine Passport" that I used to carry with me when I travelled around the world.

It was an imposed condition of travel just like a visa.

If I did not want to travel then there was no need for to get the vaccines that governments required in order to either leave or return.

Vaccination "apartheid" is a personal choice - something the anti-vaccers cannot seem to stop chattering about.

The voluntary aspect of vaccination has no bearing on demands to show a 'passport. I am fully vaccinated, but I still see the passport nonsense as an infringement of liberties, even though I am highly unlikely to go anywhere near premises insisting on such Stasi-like infringements. The fact that the virus can still be passed on by vaccinated people makes the whole thing a very bad Orwellian joke; a mere device to keep people down.

ttbn. Ys mate, exactly! If we want to travel anywhere we like, as before? We need to get to 95% vaccinated and that number has to include the super spreaders, i.e., the kids!

And we need to get the horse before the cart, i.e., vaccines for all who want them! Not like today where a very limited supply is dribbled out! After all the pollies have had a double dose!

Bet your bottom dollar, if the pollies were last on the list? There'd be no shortage of supply!
Alan B.

Most of you don't appear to read the article. So, in bare terms, the question is, if a vaccine does not provide protection against a disease, why should anyone be coerced into using it?

Don't forget Alan, that bakers were denied the right to refuse to make weeding cakes for poofter, is that somehow different?

I guess I'm lucky. I won't be getting vaccinated & I have acquired my supply of Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin & Quercetin, zinc, & vitamin D, but will be unlikely to need them. You see I get my groceries home delivered, with only the occasional shopping trip to get some good steak, a half leg of ham, things you need to actually inspect to chose a good one, or a bar-b-qued chock. I hate restaurants & spectating at anything including pop music or protests, so am not in dangerous places very often.

If shopping centers want to ban me, there are plenty of internet businesses chasing my custom, who will supply my every other need.

So roll on the genetic experiment without me. In the unlikely event they develop a true vaccine at least as effective as the flu vaccine, & as safe, come & see me then.

Dear GrahamY,

You ask: "So, in bare terms, the question is, if a vaccine does not provide protection against a disease, why should anyone be coerced into using it?"

Well with respect that really isn't the question you are asking.

The vaccines obviously do provide protection from the disease and certainly reduces the risk of both catching it and of passing it on to others.

What you are putting is whether there should be discrimination based on vaccinated status, and with all being equal no there shouldn't, as much as I think the unvaccinated are mostly deluded.

I don't think surgeons should refuse to operate on grossly overweight people and I don't think a cake making business should be refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay couple.

So it comes down to the risks posed by unvaccinated people. In my opinion if someone gets Covid and their bodies natural immunity protects both them and others around them it really shouldn't matter. Aa a simple antibody test could ascertained that a person had caught and survived the virus they should get a passport like all the others.

I feel a little bemused by the fact that many of those from the Christian right who are carrying on about vaccine discrimination were happy to vote against same sex marriage and support businesses discriminating against gay people.

It has been clear, for the better part of 18 months, to anyone prepared to dispassionately examine the data, that the lockdown was/is a disaster for the economy and large sections of the community while being essentially unnecessary. For that reason I agree with Graham's conclusion that the various governments are pushing the vaccine in order to get them out of the corner they painted themselves into over the period. Indeed I've mentioned it here previously.

The whole thing became a competition with the media calling the game. Oh this state is winning, now this. League tables are prepared. Each day's number are breathlessly reported as though they are the latest game scores.

State leaders are terrified to raise the lockdowns for the reasons Graham mentions - fear that they'll be admitting past errors. But also because they know that any future deaths would be slated to them by the media.

The various governments are so anxious to get vaccine rates up to a level they can use to justify a lockdown retreat that they are now fudging the vaccine data and willingly endangering citizen lives. A-Z was found to be suitable for only over-60s. But now it's being promoted to younger groups because that's all they've got. Equally 12 weeks were needed to maximise its efficacy, but that's now been reduced to 6 weeks to shorten the time they can unlock society. There is no science to justify those changes.

Society will be paying for these errors for generations to come.

The constituency in favour of lockdowns is a powerful coalition of those with the most to lose and those who have not lost anything.Those making the decisions have lost not a thing during the enforced closure. The media has piled on, helping the government to terrify the rest.

We now have near hysteria over the threat to kids, when they are all but immune to it. Playgrounds closed. Pre-schoolers in masks. Wow!

A vaccine mandate is utterly illiberal but is pushed because the government needs to pressure the fence-sitters into giving it a justification to open society. We cannot allow vaccine apartheid because, as with all such things, it won't stop there. Have you notied that, when you get your vaccine certificate, the programme wants to store it on your telephones payment programme - Apple Pay etc. The possible ramifications are enormous.

South Australia is now trialling a system for people to prove their present location to the government via their phone. You have to send them a selfie within 15 minutes of them demanding it. How can this be happening in Australia?

I have a digital vaccine passport but will be endeavouring to not use it where-ever possible once the government enforces it.

That much of this is being done while the nation's two biggest governments are Liberal is telling. I think the nation has crossed a threshold from which it cannot return

Dear mhaze,

Once again with the rubbish: "It has been clear, for the better part of 18 months, to anyone prepared to dispassionately examine the data, that the lockdown was/is a disaster for the economy and large sections of the community while being essentially unnecessary."

The Western Australians for one would seriously disagree with you and the bald facts are if no lockdown were instituted in this country we would have had health services completely over run as they were in many other countries. Nothing you put can alter that obvious fact.

Now it is a race for vaccinations to take care of a failure in quarantine, a race which will cost many lives unfortunately.

Dear GrahamY,

Mate, your bloke Sharhar is a dishonourable broker at the very least.

Sure Sweden has pulled a few negative weeks, partially because of the high figures previously, but in comparison with other Scandinavian countries they did appallingly. The result of Covid saw Sweden suffer 98 excess deaths per 1000 people. Finland was 28, Denmark was 7, Norway was -14.

Sweden was the only one to go above 25% in any one week. Indeed in April 2020 there was a week that came in at 49% over expected excess deaths figures.

http://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

So when you say: “For all intents and purposes, Covid’s public health effects in Sweden seem little different from those of the flu.” and your little prof says: “Not a shred of doubt: Sweden was right” I'm afraid you are both talking rot.

One aspect of the upcoming Vaccine Passport that has not been raised anywhere as far as I know, is how does a vaccinated person fulfill the obligation of proving her vaccinated status to say a restaurant, a hair salon or airline whist maintaining the right to be able to redact data she doesn't want broadcast.

A family friend, in her 90s, is keen to see the insides of a hair salon. She is double vaccinated, but is not keen on staff knowing her full name, date of birth etc, all details visible on medicare's digital certificate.

It would be good if there was a way for the individual to be able to redact a surname and/or date of birth from the visible certificate or passport (be it on paper or on a mobile device) whilst all the data collected (as required by law) remains within a QR code or similar unique identifier attached to the certificate or passport. That way if staff have the legal right to scan the codes/certificate/passport and choose to do so, then neither staff nor management of say a hair salon, fast food outlet or airline will be able to read such information.

If such protections are not provided, there will be a great many unhappy folk.

Just my 2c.

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

Well, as for 'Everybody has a right to live however they choose so long as it doesn't harm others' is concerned, I don't think it just applies to governments vs citizens.

I think it applies to everyone, and I think there's actually 2 parts to consider.

The first and most obvious, is the 'limit's to ones liberty'.
The second, less obvious outlines when one should expect criticism from others.

When one exceeds the limits of their limity and other people are negatively and detrimentally impacted by it (harm), then those people who are harmed have both a right and a duty unto themselves to stand against said harm, whatever form it is.

Media companies have become an amalgamated bureau of propaganda.
You don't get question time, if you don't tow the line.

"Our best way of dealing with COVID as a community may have been to vaccinate the vulnerable and isolate them, and let the relatively invulnerable mix together, spread the disease and infect each other, providing a protective buffer without vaccination."

Whilst I see your logic I can't agree.
My personal opinion is that Covid came from a lab as a bio-weapon and I don't want anything to do with it.
I think its supposed to make everyone sick and if 'Long Covid' is real, then a policy to deliberately infect the population is a policy that will do a great deal of harm, and I can't support it.

My position, I don't want Covid or the vaccines, I don't trust either.
With that in mind, the only way to protect the citizens of this country would've been to lock people out of the country.
The reason I think this is necessary, is because if you don't lock people out, then the result is endless lockdowns within the country.

If our leaders had've done what was necessary and not been complacent, offshore quarantine could've been built before delta even got here.
They failed.

SR,

Western Australia was able to control the WuFlu by effectively cutting themselves off from the rest of humanity. They were in the unique position to do so, given their isolation, small population density and the fact that their sources of wealth and income were physically separated from their population centres. It was the quarantine rather than the lockdowns that allowed them to control the virus. NZ went down the same path. But they had to eventually rejoin the world and as soon as they did all hell broke loose.

Just look at Sydney or Melbourne for an explanation on how lockdowns don't work.Or look at the data I've previously provided comparing lockdown jurisdiction with non-lockdown one, to see how lockdowns ultimately fail.

"if a vaccine does not provide protection against a disease, why should anyone be coerced into using it?"

Even if it does provide perfect protection, why should there be coercion? The governments need to walk a tight-rope here. On the one hand they need to tell people that the vaccines are efficacious to try to induce them to get vaccinated. And the governments need to get a sizeable majority vaccinated in order to justify reversing course on lockdowns. OTOH, they need to maintain the story that the vaccinated remain threatened in order to not dilute the current lockdown mania or to threaten the continued use of such devices.

This is also due to simple logistics. As Berejiklian stated, in one the most disgraceful admissions thus far, they have no evidence that transmission occurs in normal outdoor interactions. Yet they maintain masks and curfews and the like because it makes policing easier. Makes policing easier!! The same would apply if they relaxed restrictions based on vaccination status - it would make policing intolerable difficult. So they continue to infringe liberties to make such infringements easier to enforce. They call themselves liberal.

Despite valiant efforts to coerce the medical community into towing the line, the fact remains that receiving the vaccine carries some risk. If there is a risk, there must be a choice. The authoritarians in our midst (and depressingly they are probably a majority) feel that they have the right to assess the risk to others on behalf of those others. I'm all in favour of education campaigns to give people a better handle on the risks, but it must ultimately be a personal choice.


On a happier note, my guess is that this too will pass. Already the more rational governments (even Andrews!!) are walking away from the zero covid idiocy. Covid will become just another virus to be managed, just like the flu. Then the pressure on the governments will ease and internal vaccine passports will become surplus to needs, allowed to quietly slip into disuse.

Graham,

"if a vaccine does not provide protection against a disease, why should anyone be coerced into using it?" the answer is clearly No.

But the vaccine though not 100% effective has been shown to significantly reduce the chances of catching and spreading the disease and dramatically reduce the severity of the disease once caught.

My 24yr old son who is slim, very fit and healthy caught the delta strain whilst working in London a week before his vaccination appointment and was so ill that he needed hospitalisation and oxygen and two months later is still not 100%.

This is not the flu.

Since the eruption of Covid, Australia has gone from being envied in the beginning to being derided and mocked globally now. The latest serve comes from the U.S. magazine, The Atlantic, with an article titled "Australia Traded Away Too Much Freedom".

Author Conor Friedersdorf describes as "draconian" the Covid restrictions imposed on a country that was once one of the freest on Earth. Australia has been turned into "hermit continent".

How can Australia "still call itself a liberal democracy", the author asks. Current restrictions are compared with the sort experienced in "Communist regimes", even though they are widely accepted.

The full article is available on line and, there doesn't appear to be anything in it that is not accurate. I did find out something very nasty about apps and tracking of home quarantees in my own state that I didn't know before.

AC. One of a very few who understands! As does Steele.

Hasbeen, there are two effective and safe vaccines for us oldies, they are Pfizer and Moderna. I'd suggest you start with Pfizer, then finish with Moderna, for maximum protection. And be sure to get your booster shot in around six months. And then repeat for the term of your natural life.

Vaccination passports. Laminated cards like your driver's licence replete with photo, need not have a name, when a thumbprint would suffice to prove IDs. And enterprises could have validating readers installed as an app on their smartphones, so as to protect your right to privacy, if that be your wish.

Me? Not bothered who knows where I went and with who! But I do take issue with those who see this as some violation of their rights! Like drug dealers and pushers etc? The less privacy these serial killers have, the better I like it! Given the number of deaths and harm caused by overdoses and drug maddened psychos!

A two-week lockdown may enable many addicts to get clean going cold turkey! Yes, not pleasant! Bu almost the most effective way to get clean and out from under!

That said, the people in both WA and Q'ld have spoken and voted for their Premiers and their principled stand on putting lives/people before profit!

If Scot Morrison wants the borders open sooner then he and his jabbering cohort need to embrace island quarantine as a gold standard response to "living with covid" And far better than the apparent "I'm alright Jack approach that has been his and Glady's since they got their jabs as first in the queue!

The next election should show him and his INCOMPETENT jabbering cohort just that! lEAST WE FORGET!
Alan B

Go get vaccinated shouts the PM. WTF with Scott? Saline solution? Given the rollout in the overlooked bush!

And where (I wouldn't vote Labor if you paid me) rusted-on voters can twiddle their thumbs waiting for their end of the interminable rollout?

And not a worry cause the coalition owns their votes! Ditto the dribbling demented in our nursing homes and retirement villages etc!
Alan B.

Dear mhaze,

You write:

"Western Australia was able to control the WuFlu by effectively cutting themselves off from the rest of humanity. They were in the unique position to do so, given their isolation, small population density and the fact that their sources of wealth and income were physically separated from their population centres. It was the quarantine rather than the lockdowns that allowed them to control the virus."

Oh come on. Australia as an island was in an even better situation the WA. Four times we as a nation were Covid free and each one was ended by poor quarantining so why was a state with land boarders able to do something Morrison's lot couldn't.

WA had three separate lockdowns to control their outbreaks when quarantining failed. They work together.

shadowminister,

I am sorry to hear about your son. It really does hit home when it is someone near to you.

Friendly Jordies made the point that despite living in Sydney the first person he personally knew with Covid was an indigenous chap he had earlier interviewed on water theft at Wilcannia. It made it far more immediate for him.

Hey mhaze,
Our contract tracers in QLD are sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
The states that failed to prevent the spread of the virus, well they've completely lost the ability to trace origins of the virus and have moved to 'living with covid', the hospital system soon to become overrun.
NSW had 1400 odd cases yesterday and 12 people died.
I'm not sure we had any cases in Queensland yesterday, maybe there was a 4yo girl in Logan (due to a interstate truck driver) but our contract tracers will likely be on top of it;
- And furthermore, no-one died -

I bet there will be more in NSW and Victoria today;
- And tomorrow, and the day after that as well, for some time to come.

Thanks Alan B.
And yes SteeleRedux is right, it's fairly straightforward logic.
"Now it is a race for vaccinations to take care of a failure in quarantine, a race which will cost many lives unfortunately."

From SR: ""Now it is a race for vaccinations to take care of a failure in quarantine, a race which will cost many lives unfortunately."

So it was the quarantine that was 'saving' the lives, not the lockdown. Good. Glad you finally caught on.



From AC: "My position, I don't want Covid or the vaccines, I don't trust either."

And yet you demand that the rest of society be upended to accommodate your contradictory desires. Well, I'm opposed to vaccine passports...but I'll make an exception in your case.




Re Queenland. From the ABC (so it must be true)..."But the Premier and her Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young know it's only a temporary win and they will lose this war: that the virus will breach their border whether it is closed or open. "We are not going to be able to hold back the virus from our border. It is going to come across," Dr Young said"

Lockdowns merely delay the inevitable.

An app being trialled in South Australia that uses facial recognition and geolocation to enforce home quarantine during the Covid-19 pandemic should not be used until the proper safeguards are in place, say critics.

The very idea is appalling, but won't threaten people like me who don't have a smart phone and never will have one.

Hey ttbn,
I remember telling you all years ago that they were building a transport control grid;
So that people cant leave their homes and go 200m without the government being able to track your movement.
With everyone's collated online data all going to one single data analysis centre.
They will know more about us then we know about ourselves.

- I said this long before the pandemic even began.

Maybe I was being paranoid, or maybe that's just the path of progress the world seems to be taking anyway.

Just heard on ABC (alright, alright in know) that Australia has an over supply of Astra zeneca because everyone wants the unavailable vaccines.
That git David Spears didn't help to clarfy things either. I wonder who the irresponsible mutt was who employed him !

mhaze;
Seriously, I thought the people on the left were bat sh*te crazy weirdos
Just you lot on the right seem to be just begging to take that title.

"And yet you demand that the rest of society be upended to accommodate your contradictory desires. Well, I'm opposed to vaccine passports...but I'll make an exception in your case."

What's my desires?
That I don't want to pay a price for whatever your crap state, both it's government and citizens have done to mismanage suppressing and containing covid?
Why - because I support the lockdowns?

You people are idiots, like mentally retarded level idiots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbecile

You jump up and down and scream about restriction of movement and lockdowns
- Yet you people are the morons that refuse to wear masks, probably stubbornly refuse to check in, making the ability to suppress the virus by not tracing it near on impossible and expect to get around everywhere freely spreading it to everyone else.
You want the freedom to make everyone else sick.
You disgust me.

You people oppose the vaccines, but your expectation of freedom of movement is the EXACT BLOODY REASON everyone else needs to get tested and have the damn things.

Beyond that, Scomo dropped the ball so badly on offshore quarantine;
Stupid enough to all put it in the centre of our capital cities, for foreigners no less
That it makes Albo look compentent when he raises the issue.

How many more cases in Sydney yesterday? 1533 and 4 more dead.
- Lets just keep racking up the numbers hey...

Are you really going to throw a tantrum at me,
Because I don't want my state become the hellhole you and your leaders turned your state into?

While you idiots were arguing over lockdowns being racist and all sorts of crap.
I don't even care, keep your filthy virus out of my state.

This is how you do it....

"Florida to Fine Any Individual or Business $5,000 Per Incident for Discriminating on Vaccination Status"

http://www.wistv.com/2021/09/02/florida-issue-5000-fines-entities-asking-proof-covid-vaccination/

____________________________________________________________

Wow AC, quite the spittle-laden outburst.

I was going to fisk the post but who can be bothered..."Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Mark Twain.

But just one.

AC, who need I remind him, has already said he won't take the vaccine, complains that "You people oppose the vaccines"!! !!

But who needs to be internally consistent when you have self-imagined righteousness?

Rules are for fools! We have rules designed to stop the fools from harming others. Such as always driving on the left. Other things that are mandatory but not always the case are, mandatory seat belts and not driving while on the phone. Others will say this is just common sense?

Then there have been those mandated changes to firearm laws that outlawed most semiautomatic weapons as illegal.

Some folk seem to think covid 19 is not too serious! And might change their tune if they were the ones required to physically man ICUs and where covid patients struggled to breathe. Some might describe it as trying to breathe with a chest full of broken ribs?

And if we lose the battle and watch someone's mum or dad or grandma pass on after days of pain-racked breathing, We can empathise with the grieving and heartbroken families!

The thing that really burns me is, if we had island quarantine from the get-go? This terrible killer virus could have been completely kept out and the total economy allowed to work as almost always!

Yes, there might have been necessary to relocate some fully vaccinated and trained healthy young nurses, medicos and monitoring devices in some building or tent? But not an impossible ask!?

This being so and the glacial pace of the vaccine rollout means some senior decision-makers have, I believe, blood on their hands and come election time are heading for the electrical knackers yard?

If vaccines remain a personal choice? Then there must be passports that keep these potential super-spreaders (Drug runners/dealers/pushers etc) of, theatres, sports and entertainment venues, schools, stores and supermarkets etc-etc!

I mean, you could understand that these folk wouldn't want passports that totally identify them and record their movements down to almost the last detail!
Alan B.

Electorial was auto-corrected by Grammarly to electrical (post posting. Apologies! So helpful and free to all on Microsoft programs! Imagine what a nightmare it could be, if you were trying to write a novel without that auto-correct assistance!?
Alan B.

"The thing that really burns me is, if we had island quarantine from the get-go? This terrible killer virus could have been completely kept out and the total economy allowed to work as almost always!"

No Alan B,
- That's just not the way you do things.
You don't want individual portable cabins out in the fresh open air on an offshore island just off the coast, no.
What are you thinking Alan B? That would be stupid.

The best way to have a quarantine, is to start by locating them right in the centre of our capital cities, this is important, given people are coming from overseas.
And you don't want them out in the open air, no.
That wouldn't help at all.
What we need to do is put them all in the same one building, with circulated ventilation connecting all the rooms, that's the best way.

Grammarly, remember this - everything designed to help you was actually designed to screw you over.
In this scenario Alan B, they're teaching you how to write in a more correct manner, so that the computers and AI can analyse what you're saying better.
They're not trying to teach you how to read and write better.
They are sharpening their tools to spy upon you.

mhaze,
"AC, who need I remind him, has already said he won't take the vaccine, complains that "You people oppose the vaccines"!! !!"

Really, that's all you've got for a retort?
That's all you could come up with?
I'll make light work of this, mate;

I don't give a crap if you take the stupid vaccine or not, ok, it's your choice.
I do care if you want the freedom to spread the shite around so I'm forced to have it, you imbecile.

The Federation is crumbling into bickering states whose borders are closed to each other. Foreigners and dual citizens/permanent residents and jetsetters can fly into Australia, but Australians can’t travel around their own country.

National unity is a thing of the past.

The PM, while publicly pretending to oppose border closures, praises the WA premier for keeping people "safe" - probably pissing in voters' pockets hoping that they won't wipe out Liberals at the federal election as they did in the recent state rout. He is also putting high hopes on the vaccination requirements for easing restrictions put about by the Doherty Institute, which got its last wild predictions so horribly wrong. The Institute's diktat has not been accepted by all state Tsars, who want to keep their subjects scared and miserable.

Australia has moved from just rooted to totally rooted, as have we all - thanks to our unrealistic expectations of governments, and reluctance to stand up and be counted.

Not satisfied with it's gross abuse of power in connection with Covid, the Victorian government is seeking to perpetrate "the most vicious attack on freedom of speech" in Australia's in peacetime history,” according to the Institute of Public Affairs.

The Andrews government is proposing to give vast powers to the human rights bureaucracy "to regulate and censor the opinions of mainstream Australians.” Practically any expression of an opinion that someone disagreed with could be declared unlawful, even if nobody was actually harmed by the opinion expressed.

The IPA believes that the Andrews government plans to empower left-wing activist groups to enforce the law. Given Andrews' track record that might not be as far fetched as some might think.

Hey ttbn,
They're going after free speech in the US too.
Lefties here, Lefties there - par for the course.

Free Speech Is Killing Us
http://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/opinion/sunday/free-speech-social-media-violence.html

The Case Against Free Speech
http://www.boldtypebooks.com/titles/pe-moskowitz/the-case-against-free-speech/9781568588667/

Dangerous Speech Project
http://dangerousspeech.org/

http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538775/on-the-media
Constitutionally Speaking - August 27, 2021

Leiter, Brian - "The Case against Free Speech" [2016]
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/SydLawRw/2016/19.html#fn1

I agree, this country's stuffed.
It's supposed to be one person one vote.
Whats this 2 party preferential system?
2 parties preferring that I don't ever vote for anyone but them? - Or they fine me?

As for delta, being vaccinated wont remove a need for being tested.
http://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/07/28/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine
It probably won't even remove a need for masks
http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-nyc-de-blasio-covid-vaccinated-should-wear-masks-to-slow-delta-variant-20210802-lbibwgye2nfpzoqxhswplvcziu-story.html

I heard a nurse state the PCR tests contain carcinogens.

They will just change the rules again and again.
It's just another admission that vaccinated people can catch and pass on delta.

This article should be enough to tell you that the vaccines aren't going to work like they're saying.
Israel is one of the most highly vaccinated countries in the world.
Now they have 11000 cases per day.

http://theconversation.com/covid-cases-are-rising-in-highly-vaccinated-israel-but-it-doesnt-mean-australia-should-give-up-and-live-with-the-virus-166404

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-covid-delta-variant-booster-1.6159472

The vaccines won't work like they want.

And a government this incompetent (ours) and lacking forward thing on anything, is not going to save us.
They're clueless, and hoping for the best.

It's not going to work.

AC

Your first reference is paywalled, the second one was a book I wouldn't read. I think it's best if we don’t go looking for more nutters than we already know exist in our day to day lives - our own politicians, our own media, some of the OLO posters.

If it was the Chinese Communist Party's idea to unsettle their enemies, it's working, with the help of our own politicians, the media, constantly harping about new cases every bloody day, all bloody day.

People are committing suicide because of the lockdowns and scaremongering. People are going broke. Nobody seems to have any hope. Misery abounds. Rabbits in the spotlight. Frogs in slow bowling water. Nothing positive at all.

People are going broke.
ttbn,
That's why I stated very early into this that Public servants on secure incomes should pay a levy of a few Dollars from their salary towards helping those who are losing their income.
The more they earn the more they can afford those who really need. In fact everyone who is not losing income should contribute including Pensioners & Superannuation recipients & Politicians in particular.
I have long said we need a lottery for those losing a job. It would be a morale booster & an actual & real benefit to for society if people can win an income for life. Economically it'd be a winner for the nation.

AC,

Yes I get it. You "don't want...the vaccines" but are dirty on "people [who] oppose the vaccines". So everyone else should be vaccinated so you can avoid it.

Not quite the highest ideals of altruism there.

___________________________________________________

individual,

Yep. At least part of the problem in my view is that the people making these decisions aren't really affected by them. They remain employed and they continue their lives. Those around them, their staff and their employees remain employed . Indeed for many of them, the lockdowns have improved their lives both financially and in terms of life-style, being able to work from home. Gladys is big on saying she hasn't seen her parents for ages as though that means she understands the travails that those most affected are going through.

"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell

GY
Greetings.

I understand your frustration.

There is one issue you wish to highlight, that of compulsory vaccination, but to do so, you have overplayed it with the issue of efficacy of the vaccine.

That has set off the.dog pack in all directions.

I hesitate to use the word, but we have in front of us a philosophical argument on which trumps what; the personal benefit to self, or the greater good of society.
I’ve consulted with Plato, the most understandable of philosophers and on a generic level of understanding.
I believe he puts your argument in the context of Justice V Injustice.

You attempt to prove your own bias to the test, by conflating the issue with a perceived failure of the vaccines to ameliorate the effects of the COVID disease.

I think your best advised to extract that argument from the mix, if you wish for a more legitimate conclusion.

I think the question should read; Is there evidence that all of society must conform to the rules governed by others seperate from the individual?
Answer yes.

It is the job of the politicians to formulate rules: it is the obligation of the individual to follow them.
All of history is written with this black ink.

Free speech gives the individual the rights to speak against the rule, but not the right to follow actively against it.
The result of the latter is anarchy.

Dan

Dear Dan,

«I think the question should read; Is there evidence that all of society must conform to the rules governed by others seperate from the individual?
Answer yes.»

This indeed would be the case if/when participation in this group of people called "society" and accepting its constitution was voluntary and without duress - not just because one happens to have a human body with one's feet walking the face of this God-given earth.

Otherwise imposing rules is sheer violence - and everyone could define "society" to be whatever suits their hunger for power.

One may not, of course, eat the cake and have it too, ask a society for privileges (beyond one's natural freedom) but not accept its restrictions.

Dan I would agree with you if these so called vaccines actually worked. However we have huge proof they do not do what vaccines as we know them actually do. Israel has amply proved this.

Then we have India where the use of antivirals has stopped the death rates, in the states where it was given out, more dramatically than the vaccines in Israel.

With the current manufacturers indemnified stuff, rushed to market, there is a definite immediate death rate, & a total lack of knowledge of what long term problems may result. Mixed with the denigration of antiviral approach, proven in the control of AIDS, there is just too much smoke for there not to be some fire involved in the government approach.

I know the deep lefties will shut their eyes to avoid seeing the problem of dictator Dan & the others, but I can not believe you can't see this.

mhaze,
That doesn't make any sense at all;
I said quote:
"I don't give a crap if you take the stupid vaccine or not, ok, it's your choice.
I do care if you want the freedom to spread the shite around so I'm forced to have it, you imbecile."

What part of that statement makes you think I want you to get the vaccine?

Obviously I respect free choice to have or not have it;
And I recognise that some people weigh up the risks of one or the other;
To potentially get delta whilst unvaccinated, or take the vaccine.
I don't begrudge anyone's choice, it's theirs to make.

The part you don't get is the hypocrisy you display.
You don't want the vaccine, that's fine - free choice.

But then you want freedom of movement and freedom from masks, check-ins, lockdowns, lockouts etc.
- Which equates to 'freedom to spread the virus' - AND RESULTS IN
Everyone else being put in the position to have to either take the vaccine for when delta continues to spread, or get delta unvacinnated;
And heaps dying or hospitalised nonetheless.

Either way you want to spread the virus to others because you're sick of the lockdowns.

Your state stuffed it for themselves.
Why should everyone else's states have to pay?
Your states should take their medicine.
Our states should be free from the results of your states failure to suppress the virus.

Your position is one that you don't want to be put out by covid restrictions;
Which means you don't give a crap if others die by the virus spread..
It's people with an attitude like yours that got us to this point.

Now you think I'm heartless, Alan B points out people are losing everything and committing suicide.
Well I've got to rationally weigh that up don't I?

Should I feel MORE sorry for the one who CHOOSES to top themself because of restrictions?
Or MORE sorry for the one who DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE and dies because you don't like restrictions?
- That your state and leaders brought on itself?

Hasbeen:

When above I addressed GY’s argument that I have taken as core value viz, a vaccine mandate which restricts movement and freedoms without the vaccine, I exclude any argument but freedom of the individual over the greater good of society..AND who decides on that particular outcome.

So the question is; who has the power to formulate the rule which restricts the liberties of the individual for the broader good of society.

That argument is irrelevant to the other concern you raise, about the veracity or usefulness of the vaccine.

I have a decision myself, based on long conversations over dinner with a cardiac specialist.
It draws different conclusions to your own.

Yuyutsu:
All societies are governed by rules. The necessity of those rules are obvious.
I’m puzzled by your hostility against rules and norms of society, formulated on the most part, for a peaceful and productive future.

Dan

Dan I have read widely, & had a serious discussion with my doctor, who is not a cardiologist, but has studied the questions.

He told me he would not try to convince me. That he had the jab himself, but had not given it to his mother, as he did not like the choice offered us oldies.

I have all the discussed antivirals, & we are dosed up zinc & D. I doubt we will become infected, avoiding large gatherings, but we do go to chemists & doctors, probably the most dangerous place other than a hospital or a protest. We will be sure to self isolate if we start having symptoms, & follow doctors suggestions with antivirals.

I doubt we are likely to threaten Armchair Critic, so he is probably safe with his vaccine.

AC wrote: "What part of that statement makes you think I want you to get the vaccine?"

Nothing. It was your earlier comment, before you started to obfuscate to hide your hypocrisy. Viz..."You disgust me. You people oppose the vaccines".

But I see that pointing out your lack of intellectual consistency is triggering so I'll vex you no longer.

Hasbeen wrote:
" I would agree with you if these so called vaccines actually worked."

I don't think the efficacy of the vaccine is the issue. It cannot be denied that there is an element of risk in getting the vaccine and, whatismore, the risk differs by individual. As such the question as to whether to take it or not, must be up to the individual if we have any asperations to being a liberal democracy. Allowing people in far off locales to make and enforce the decision is simply unacceptable.

Dear Dan,

«All societies are governed by rules. The necessity of those rules are obvious.
I’m puzzled by your hostility against rules and norms of society, formulated on the most part, for a peaceful and productive future.»

I did not oppose rules WITHIN a society.
What I oppose is the forcing of people, involuntarily to participate in a society or to be counted as "members" thereof.

Once a society is entered into voluntarily, I have no problem with that society having its internal rules/norms FOR ITS MEMBERS who are there of their free choice.

Hasbeen

I’ve tried to stay away from the argument of the vaccine.

But firstly the Covid itself needs consideration. From that point a more rational decision can be made towards the vaccine.

Covid:
Statistics confirm the cause of death from Covid lies roughly shared between respiratory
failure and blood clots.
The blood clots are formed by the bodies own coagulating defence, a natural process designed to plug up damage from a wound.

It’s this mechanism, activated as a response to the virus, which confuses the bodies defences. and overreacts, effectively turning blood into a thick coagulating sludge which shuts down vital organs by starving the blood supply through the clotting process.

The vaccine appears not to be working with the Delta strain of Covid, and it is true, it’s not as effective against it since, like the flue injections, it needs to be reengineered to recognise the variants as they appear.
There is nothing surprising going on here. It’s simply a logistical nightmare to keep abreast of the ramifications.

The lockdowns are the only true defensive position pending the vaccines catching up to the variants.

Your best advice is to have the vaccine, which will give your body some defence against it, then keep up with the variant vaccines as and when they become available.
And that on top of what your already doing, isolate etc.

Dan

Kerry Chant says she wants 90% vaccination, I think they'll have to make it mandatory to get there.
And they might, you know why?
Because they already know from whats happened in Israel that 80% isn't going to cut it.
They might just be lying to get everyone to vaccinate, and then they'll shift the goalposts, again and again.
- And they may even know that this is exactly what they plan to do.
- Because if they don't people might just give up right now, and all hell will break loose.
- Also politically Gladys has to at least look like she's on top of things, and Scomo also has to suck up to NSW as well.
They're all in cahoots for themselves.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-27/how-australia-could-become-world-most-covid-vaccinated-country/100410504

I actually support Hasbeen's point of view in regards to Ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, Prednisone;
All of those so called anti-virals if any of them are of use.
If any of these things can help you in the event of catching Covid or Delta then why are they being denied to us?
- Is it not the same bullcrap as denying cancer patients cbd oil?
- Some stupid bureaucratic idea that stands between peoples best interests in their own health?

Tasmanian Liberal Premier Peter Gutwein reserved the right to stay closed at 90%
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-04/tasmania-covid-roadmap-border-reopening-vaccination-rate/100431784

SA Liberal Premier Steven Marshall on Thursday said "very different, nuanced arrangements" would be put in place "as we get up to that 80% level".

>>"What I mean by that is, rather than locking down an entire state, we can move down to identifying and isolating those areas in each state where there may be a cluster,"<<

The government wants to pick on WA and QLD (Labor) for wanting to stay free from infection, but it's no different from Tasmanian Liberal Premier Peter Gutwein's position.

Our Premier owes nothing to the people in other states.
In we had a state referendum in QLD today asking 'Should we open the borders?' what do you think the response would be?

'HELL NO!'

Palaszczuk will pay a huge price if she opens borders.

Embargoed Until: Friday, August 6, 2021, 1:00 p.m. ET.

"In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections."

The anti-vaxxers continue to deny the medical evidence.

That's not what I heard Paul,
I heard catching Covid will give you 7 times the immunity that you would otherwise get from 2 shots of Pfizer.
- So much conflicting information.

Hi AC,

What it is, is the protection offered after catching Covid is variable. In some cases there is a high level of immunity from having had the disease, for others it is rather low, its doubtful that natural immunity is uniform. For those that have had the virus vaccination should still be a consideration.