Why not have one state with equal rights for all, civil marriage, an integrated school system and separation of religion and state? Why shouldn't Israel be a democracy? Most Jews and Arabs know what a democracy is. Jews and Arabs live peacefully together in the US, Australia and the UK. Why not live peacefully together in a democratic Israel.

Maybe, perhaps. Can't rule it out or in! But cannot definitely rule it in! Debatable.
Alan B.

Dear David,

«Why not have one state with equal rights for all, civil marriage, an integrated school system and separation of religion and state?»

Very simple - because the people do not want it!

You mentioned, «Why shouldn't Israel be a democracy?»,
well a democracy is supposed to serve the people of a country - not the international or secular aspirations of people who do not live in that country.

Arabs do live peacefully in Israel as equal citizens; some of them are in the Knesset. Its always the anti-Semites and anti-Israel bigots who know the least about Jews and about Israel.

why not have a one state with equal rights for all?

Because Israel is not a democratic state. It is a
Jewish state. And right from the beginning its
first PM David Ben Gurion made it quite clear that:

"We must do everything to insure they (Palestinians) never
do return."

(from his diary 18th July 1948).

A more recent former Pm Benjamin Netanyahu's approach to
Palestinians was:

"The way to deal with Palestinians is to beat them up,
not once but repeatedly. Beat them up so it hurts so
badly until it's unbearable."

And Israel has imposed institutionalized discrimination
against Palestinians living under its rule in Israel
and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

Israel has displaced hundreds of Palestinians in Israel
and the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem as a result
of demolitions and imposition of other coercive measures.

Israel maintains its illegal blockade in the Gaze strip
subjecting its residents to collective punishment
and deepening the humanitarian crisis there.

It restricts freedom of movement of Palestinians
in the Occupied Palestinian Territories through
checkpoints and blockades. And the list goes on.

Jewish safety and Palestinian freedom are not opposing
causes and that only extremists benefit from pitting
the causes of Palestinian freedom and Jewish safety
against each other.

Many well know Jews have regularly called out Israeli
crimes against Palestinians by framing it as a
political issue related to human rights and not religion.

A growing number of Jews in the diaspora are refusing
to accept Israeli oppression against Palestinians in their
name.

Which is only right because the Jewish community has an
inherited trauma of persecution. And what Israel is
doing is not right. However, a one state solution will
not work. Zionists will not allow it.

Dear Foxy,

I know Israel is a Jewish state and not a democratic state. I propose that Israel become a democratic state. I know at the present time most inhabitants of Israel do not want a democratic state. Possibly, the examples of Jews and Arabs living peacefully together in democratic nations might be an example for them to see the benefits of a democratic state. Most Jews in Israel are secular, and the arguments for a democratic state would appeal to them. The just elected government of Israel which includes the Arab List might be a step in that direction. The United States founded as a slavocracy elected Obama president. Nations change.

Dear David F.,

One can only wish that what you suggest could
happen. But what leanings does the current
government of Israel and their new PM have?
Has anything improved for the Palestinians
recently? And if most of the Jews in Israel are
secular who voted the current government in and
the current PM?

Sorry, I frankly don't see a one state solution
happening in Israel any time soon. The only way
any change could happen is for the US and the
Jewish diaspora put pressure on Israel.
Realistically do you see that happening?

Dear Foxy,

What is most likely to happen is that Jews outside Israel will feel less connected to Israel, and Israel will go its own way. I have never been to Israel and have no plans to go there. It is just another non-democratic country to me.

Dear David F.,

I have always wanted to go to Israel -

I have friends in Tel Aviv. My brother and his
wife went there not so long ago and they loved
it there. I hope that your wishes for Israel
becoming a one state democratic country does
come true - where people can live in peace
together.

Peace will never happen until Israel decides, or is forced, to become a good responsible world citizen.
Sadly it has many bad examples to follow.

A common misunderstanding is that Israel is a Jewish state: No, Israel is a Hebrew state.

It is no wonder that Jews who follow the Western culture, arrange their schedule by the Gregorian calendar (including a "weekend" on Saturday-Sundays, dates starting at midnight, X-mas and "New-Year"), speak English, do not pray in Hebrew nor read Hebrew literature and scriptures, find no interest in Israel.

On the other hand, Christian, Muslim and Druze Arabs who participate in the Hebrew culture and speak the Hebrew language fluently, find themselves welcome within Israeli society. Christian and Druze Arabs were long accepted in the Israeli political system and Muslims too are gradually being integrated and I very much hope for this trend to continue.

The citizens of Israel want to continue having a country that lives by their culture, that speaks their language, that respects their calendar.
They will never give all that up without a bitter fight (and this they are very good at), just as most Australians wouldn't willingly give up theirs.

No place on earth is truly democratic, but comparatively, Israel is far more democratic than Australia.

The Australian farce on democracy allows, for all intensive purposes, only a choice between two perpetual parties. Democracy is supposed to be "one person one vote", but if one fortunately happens to live in a "marginal electorate", then they have some power to choose between the two, while another who lives across the street in a different electorate has 0 influence. In the Israeli electoral system, while still imperfect, the vast majority of voters have an equal vote.

Unlike Australia, even prisoners in Israel are allowed to vote, possibly in attempt to repeal the laws that landed them in jail to begin with.

Also unlike Australia, even amidst the heaviest COVID lockdown, Israelis were able to go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government, which they eventually replaced - that much the right of protest is considered sacred there.

Yuyutsu,

Israel forces uses excessive force during law
enforcement activities in the Occupied
Palestinian Territories.

Israeli forces routinely kill Palestinians,
including children in the Occupied Palestinian
Territories. Many killed are unlawfully killed
posing no imminent threat.

The Israeli authorities arbitrarily detain
thousands of Palestinians from the Occupied
Palestinian Territories holding them without
charge or trial.

Torture and other ill treatments of detainees including
children are committed with impunity.

The Israeli authorities target human rights defenders,
journalists and others who criticize Israel's
occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syrian
Golan Heights.

Violence against women persists especially
Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Israeli authorities deny asylum seekers access to a fair
or prompt refugee status.

To call Israel a democracy is sadly - ignorance.
It needs to stop. But as long as Israel gets the
support it gets - nothing will change.

Dear Foxy,

Whatever you wrote, what has it to do with democracy?

Are you saying that democracies cannot do bad things that you do not like?

If a kingdom behaves badly, then you can blame its king.
If an aristocracy behaves badly, then you can blame its elite or ruling party.
If a theocracy behaves badly, then you can blame its Ayatollahs.
If a democracy, such as Israel, behaves badly, then you can blame the majority of its people, but do not falsely claim that it is not a democracy, because Israel, like it or not, is far more democratic than Australia.

Yuyutsu,

I question whether Israel can call itself a democracy.
Israel's occupation of the West Bank and other Palestinian
Occupied Territories is a key issue.

A democracy is not an arrangement where the country
controls every aspect virtually of the lives of millions
of people who have no real say or vote in the government
that rules them. The religious establishment in Israel
is part of the state and that presents a host of
challenges and problems when it comes to issues of freedom.

Palestinians have no real say in decision making in Israel.
Democracy is not to be inside the Knesset as a minority.
Democracy is to give the Palestinians the right to
influence the system. But as a Palestinian they are not
allowed to be a part of this regime. Because this regime
defends the state as a state of the Jews.

Calling Israel a "democracy" is misleading because the word
"democracy" doesn't change the conditions for Palestinians in
Israel. Just as the word "Democratic" does not make the
"Democratic People's Republic of Korea - North Korea"
a democracy.

Dear Foxy,

Israel's occupation of the West Bank and other territories is indeed very bad, but it does not disqualify Israel from being a democracy.

The residents of the West Bank are under occupation, not Israeli citizens, and those in Eastern Jerusalem are Israeli permanent residents. Even in Australia, permanent residents cannot vote even if they live in Australia all their lives, until they become citizens by alleging their loyalty to Australia. The residents of Eastern Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have this option, but most do not use it because they are unwilling to allege loyalty to Israel. In fact, many of them remain loyal to the idea of Israel's destruction.

«A democracy is not an arrangement where the country
controls every aspect virtually of the lives of millions
of people who have no real say or vote in the government
that rules them.»

Wow, you just described Australia... let's continue...

«The religious establishment in Israel
is part of the state and that presents a host of
challenges and problems when it comes to issues of freedom.»

Indeed, this is sadly true everywhere on this planet, but why do you call Israel's establishment "religious", I wonder?
As far as I can see, there is nothing religious about it!

«Palestinians have no real say in decision making in Israel.»

Because they are not Israeli citizens.

«Democracy is not to be inside the Knesset as a minority.»

Democracy IS the curse of minorities, all over the world!

«...But as a Palestinian they are not
allowed to be a part of this regime.»

And most of them who are allowed, do not want to. I wish they did.

«Because this regime
defends the state as a state of the Jews.»

The Israeli regime only provides lip-service to Jews. Israel is a Hebrew state, not really a Jewish one.
In fact, most Jews round the world (i.e. reform-Jews) are unwelcome in Israel.

«"Democratic People's Republic of Korea - North Korea"»

Besides the Palestinian issue, the differences between Israel and North Korea are vast. Australia could learn a lot about democracy from Israel!

Yuyutsu,

I hope that Israel's style of "democracy" will never
come to Australia. The state is so strong. They can
confiscate Palestinian land, demolish Palestinian
homes, not let them study their history in schools,
and worse - as already mentioned.

Israel's new PM believes the conflict with Palestinians
is pretty well insoluble. He backs Jewish occupations in
the occupied Palestinian Territories (West Bank, et al),
and opposes any political statehood. So nothing will
change.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this. You
consider Israel a "democracy". I consider Israel a
Jewish state - not a democratic state.

I have no further wish to argue with you.

Yuyutsu.

I'd like to draw your attentio0n to the fact that
many well known Jews have regularly called out
Israeli crimes against Palestinians be framing
the issues as political issues related to human
rights. A growing number of Jews in the diaspora
are refusing to accept Israeli oppression against
Palestinians in their name.

Jewish safety and Palestinian freedom are not opposing
causes and that only extremists benefit from pitting
the causes of Palestinian freedom and Jewish safety
against each other. They can secure their
rights without denying them to others. It can be done
as the author of this article suggests.

The Jewish community has an inherited trauma of
persecution. They should not persecute others.
Both can live side by side in peace. It's time this
happened.

Again with the two state meme?

What those who advocate it really mean is that Israel has to give concessions to the so-called Palestinians so that they agree to live peacefully.

And when that doesn't work (see Gaza) then Israel has to give more concessions.

And when that doesn't work Israel has to give more concessions.

And when that doesn't work.....

There will be peace in the Levant when those who call themselves Palestinians realise that they can't destroy Israel, that they have 100% of what they want. Oh and when these so-called Palestinians aren't led by people who profit from the on-going crisis.

Then there will be peace or what passes for peace in that part of the world.

Dear Foxy,

Whether or not Israel is a democracy (I respect your wish to not continue discussing it), one thing it is not - a Jewish state.

If you think of Israel as a Jewish state then you buy into the propaganda of the Jewish settlers. This includes the propaganda of Israel's original, pre-1948 settlers, as well as the current violent settlers of the West-Bank.

What the original founders of Israel wanted, was to create a Hebrew state whereby they could shake off their weakling diaspora-mentality and re-create the extinct but proud Hebrew culture of people who live on their own land.

But then came the holocaust, followed by the world pitying the Jews and wanting to make reparations to alleviate its guilt. Creating a fresh Hebrew state and having it accepted proved difficult, but hitching onto the Jewish cause helped in gaining the world's support.

Thus started the compromise and deceitful tactic of pretending to form a "Jewish state", "Jewish" by name only in order to benefit from the world's sympathy.

Much later on, this propaganda was renewed by the West-Bank settlers who want to rob Israel's identity and make it serve their fanatic Messianic Jewish ambitions instead.

In practice, Israel always was and still is, a Hebrew state. While all Jews are formally allowed to settle in Israel, Jews who were uninterested in the Hebrew culture never found their true place in Israel, while other Jews who escaped to Israel due to economic hardship and persecution (especially in Arab countries and Africa), found themselves as 2nd-class Israeli citizens. On the other hand, non-Jewish Arabs who adopted the Hebrew language and culture, who chose to be constructive rather than destructive, were nicely integrated into Israeli society.

Dear Mhaze,

Indeed, the so-called "Palestinians" do not deserve concessions.

Israel ought to leave those occupied cursed territories for its own good, not for others' sake but in order to save its own moral character from the corruption incurred by its 1967 war.

There may not be peace in the levant, but at least Israel could live in peace within itself. Whether the so-called "Palestinians" also subsequently live in peace with Israel is up to them, but as you said, they cannot destroy Israel anyway!

Yuyutsu,

Before I go I'd like to once again make the claim that:

Israel is a Jewish state.

Of course I realize that you don't agree with this but
the reality is that in practice -
Israel's institutions, and policies
are designed to ensure the perpetuation of a Jewish
majority, which is accorded superior rights and
privileges relative to Israel's Palestinian, Muslim,
and Christian citizens.

Time magazine confirms that chief among these policies is the
reservation of the lion's share of land for Jews within Israel.

It's therefore no wonder that this state policy
ensures permanent, mutual hostility between Palestinians
and the state and their deepening antagonism.
A two state solution is virtually impossible while this
perpetuation to a Jewish majority continues.

There's more at the following:

http://www.time.com/6048366/Israel-palestine-conflict-world/

Dear Foxy,

It seems that the author of the article you quoted (an Arab name, BTW) was also misled by settler propaganda, them who try to hijack Israel for their Messianic-Jewish cause.

Israel historically presented itself as a Jewish state because it had no choice, because it could not obtain the world's (including America's) approval otherwise. This was not its intention but a necessary tactic. For lack of better formal definitions it is still reflected in the letter of its laws, but not in practical everyday life there.

For you perhaps and for the author, it does not really matter what Israelis want or what Israel stands for, so long as it is gone: the so-called "Palestinians", for reasons or their own, are bent on Israel's destruction and suppose they were successful, then no, they would not have their own state, but instead rejoin Greater Syria with which they identified before the British occupation.

But for me it matters, because I have family there.

If the intent and purpose of Israel is to accommodate the Jewish people, then it can be understood why it must be bigger in area, why it must push out all other ethnicities, why it must make room for their King, the Messiah of David's lineage (and I don't mean Jesus), to come. This would also mean that Israel couldn't remain democratic.

However, if as I claim, the intent and purpose of Israel's founders as well as of [still, I hope] most Israelis, is to have a place for those who so wish to live according to and enhance the Hebrew culture, this unique Israeli culture which so much differs from other Jewish cultures, then Israel would benefit from having a smaller area, from democracy, from peace and from absorbing these non-Jewish people in their area who are also attracted to their culture (but not others).

You seem to condemn the people of Israel as a whole for the crimes of some fanatic, Taliban-like Messianic Jewish cult. They too are the victims of that cult, not just the Palestinians.

Yuyutsu,

A few corrections:

The author of this article - Alon Ben Meir
was born to a Jewish family. His names are not Arabic -
their origins are Hebrew.

He is a Professor of International relations at New
York University. He teaches courses on international
negotiation and Middle Eastern Studies. He knows what
he's talking about.

I don't condemn the people of Israel. I am critical of
the government, and their policies. As a matter of fact
I have pointed out that there are many Jews who have
regularly called out Israeli crimes against Palestinian.
And that a growing number of Jews in the diaspora are
refusing to accept Israeli oppression against Palestinians
in their name

In any case as I stated earlier I can see that there is no
further point in any discussion with you on this subject.
I shall not be responding to you any further.
BTW: I also have friends as well as family in Israel.

Dear Foxy,

I understand that you do not wish to discuss this any further.

Just to clarify, I was not referring in my previous post to Alon Ben-Meir, but to Mouin Rabbani, the author of the other article you pointed me to.

Yuyutsu,

I keep being dragged back here.

However, I feel obligated to point out to you that -
Mouin Rabbani is an independent researcher and
analyst of the contemporary Middle East. He has
published and commented widely on Palestinian affairs
and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the contemporary
Middle East.

He was previously Senior Middle East and Special Adviser on
Israel-Palestine with the International Crisis Group and
Head of Political Affairs with the Office of the United
Nation's Special Envoy for Syria.

We need more knowledgeable moderate voices like his
(and Alon Ben-Meir's) from both sides to be heard.
Not just vested interests with an
axe to grind or Zionists with an agenda if peace is to ever
be achieved in the Middle East.

Dear Foxy,

«We need more knowledgeable moderate voices like his
(and Alon Ben-Meir's) from both sides to be heard.
Not just vested interests with an
axe to grind»

Yes, you caught me red-handed: Mea Culpa.
Indeed I have an axe to grind, I am not moderate at all: I want my family in Israel to live and be well.
Indeed I am so perverted that I don't even want peace in the middle east if my family is going to suffer as a result.

«I keep being dragged back here.»

Whoever or whatever dragged you, wasn't me.

«However, I feel obligated to point out to you that...»

You told me that you did not wish to discuss the topic any further.
I accepted it. I respect your wish.
Yet you feel that something obliges you, so it must be within your psyche.
You may want to look within to find what it is, perhaps some professional help may also help.
You want peace in the middle-east - how about making peace with yourself?

Yuyutsu,

I believe in miracles. And I believe peace in the
Middle East is possible with a two-state solution.
And global support.

What keeps dragging me back to this discussion
is the misinformation that you keep spinning.
It's a professional habit for me to set the record straight.
And as for your seeing my wish for peace and
setting the record straight as some sort of psychological
problem on my part says more about you than it does
about me.

You should consider and seek professional help.
And stop looking at things and buying into the Zionist
propaganda.

Dear Foxy,

«What keeps dragging me back to this discussion
is the misinformation that you keep spinning.»

Whatever information or misinformation I presented, was already here in plain sight BEFORE you asked to stop the discussion, so since I refrained to comment on the topic, good or bad, it could not have been anything that I wrote which "dragged" you back.

«I believe in miracles. And I believe peace in the
Middle East is possible with a two-state solution.
And global support.»

I also would like to see a two-state solution, but we must not rely on miracles, especially when so many others are already in the queue for conflicting miracles: http://www.aish.com/atr/Relying_on_Miracles.html

Regarding "Peace in the Middle East", I keep my mouth shut as per your request.

Yuyutsu,

A big hug from me to you!

Thank you Foxy, much appreciated!