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The Forum > Article Comments > On death and dying > Comments

On death and dying : Comments

By Don Aitkin, published 29/7/2021

I live in an aged-care facility, commonly referred to as 'God's waiting room'. I've been there now for two and a half years, and am the longest-serving resident at my table.

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What cheerful start to the day. Why Don wants another 4 years of that just because someone else died a 88 is beyond me. I'm very much hoping to avoid the nursing home misery and going straight to the real thing.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 29 July 2021 9:36:49 AM
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Don with all his talents could surely contribute
more to the people he shares the nursing home
with. I imagine that he would have tremendous
stories to tell and share with others. His time
would pass far more quickly and it might encourage
others to contribute as well. Also what about his
family members? Don't any of them visit him?
It sounds like he's in a bit of a slump at the moment.
But things could definitely improve. Where there's a
will, there's a way.

I'd also speak to the facilities manager and ask for
entertainment and activity programs to be made
available (if they're not already) to get people to
be more active. Sitting and concentrating on death
and dying is not healthy even for the fit, let alone
people who feel excluded and isolated.

Prof. Aitkin - chin u p. If I knew where you were I'd
pay you a visit. You and your friends - and I'm sure
that I could cheer you all up and you'd do the same for
me. You've lead a very worthwhile life - one that's
certainly worth sharing with others. And being only in
your eighties - you've got many more years left.

My mother was 96 when she passed away. So don't give up yet.
You need to grab life with both hands. It is worth living.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 July 2021 10:08:18 AM
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A moving and thoughtful piece on a subject few talk about. It touches a chord with those of us not far from the final straight.
Posted by Bren, Thursday, 29 July 2021 11:20:56 AM
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Thank you Don for your frank sharing from 'God's waiting room.'

You wonder about what happens after death.

A brilliant scientific book on this is Ervin Laszlo's tour de force:

'What is reality?:
The New Map of Cosmos, Consciousness, and Existence'

Please read it and tell us what you think.

All the best.

Please keep writing and continue sharing.
Posted by Andris, Thursday, 29 July 2021 11:37:27 AM
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On ya Don

May you hang in there, to 89.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 29 July 2021 12:50:23 PM
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Don. Nursing homes are the last thing any of us want. First of all, it costs less to provide a similar level of care in the resident's own home! At least forty per cent less, according to one ivy league study.

I've seen things in geriatric care that'd make your hair curl. Including a male nurse equipped with a huge rubber covered torch, rummaging through a patient's belongings. And when I switched on a light, he said, turn it off you'll waken other patients. At which point the other light sleepers tuned theirs on, enquiring, what's going on!

How many are smothered as they sleep if they prove too troublesome, ask difficult questions?

For mine, these great big rubber torches need to be restricted to the psyche wards. As someone belted unconscious? Could in the absence of CCTV or an eyewitness, could be merely written off as a fall? And there are lots of falls in nursing homes aren't there? Some of which are never survived? CCTV should therefore be mandated! so as to eliminate some of the more troublesome apets of aged care!

Showers? five minutes if you're lucky and dressed still wet?

Then here is, for-profit, aged care where the shareholders share millions?

Don. There ought to be a sign over nursing home entrances and it should read, abandon all hope ye who enter here! And never a truer word spoken, Don. And likely explains why at 88 you're the last surviving member of that table?

You need a will to live and go on having a will to live, when aadoned in a gulag for old people? Given that's what many surely are? I'd swing before allowing myself to be incarserated in one. Where the last shred of independence is taken! Independant living is only ever proven if there is tangible/recoverable evidence of the same!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Thursday, 29 July 2021 1:09:26 PM
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Don. The very last thing you'll do is die? I'll never understand why graveyards are so popular. After all, everyone there was just dying to move in. And accommodation to die for!

The Irish have a saying which goes, Life wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, after all, none of us get of it alive?

Now I understand why you write so much, Don. Keep on contributing to informed debate, Don. That's needed today as never before! And as always, I'll reserve my right to robustly disagree!

Good luck, long life and prosper! Take care and have a very nice day!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Thursday, 29 July 2021 1:26:20 PM
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Don has mentioned going for drives with his son Foxy, so I don't think he lacks family contact, however most friends are a fact of time & place.

I don't have contact with any of my navy mates, late 50s, & have contact with only one motor racing mate, [60s] & one sailing mate, [70s]. My friends today are from my Triumph car club, Remote con troll flying club, & local people involved in community activities, [last 35 years]. I think that is usual today, with our mobile society. We no longer live in one village with life long friends.

Yesterday I installed a new pressure pump on one of my household water tanks. The old one had been repaired so often that it was getting like Grandpa's axe. You know the one, it'd had 5 new handles & 2 new heads. It was 35 years old, & time to go.

It took me 5 hours to do a 1 hour job, including a 1 hour break to get the knees & back straight again. It reminded me that like the p[ump I've been round a long time.

Like Don I have an age goal, it's 84 years. You see I am a leap year baby, so never got a 21St birthday, in fact I've only had 20 so far. At my 21St year I was already a hot shot navy fighter pilot, so wasn't about to admit to my compatriots I was still just a kid, so no party.

I had an 80Th party, which was fun, seeing some long not seen, if not lost, friends, & a huge 21St would be great. I just hope I don't break down like that pump before then.

Incidentally the last thing I want to do is make it to 99 like my mother. She didn't either, but did not have much say in it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 29 July 2021 1:31:52 PM
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I guess we can only speak from our own experiences
with aging and nursing homes. My mother-in-law
had alzeimers - and she went ballistic when she
was diagnosed. She lived with us for a while but
it was difficult and finally we had to put her into
a nursing home. A lovely Blue Cross one. The care she
received was excellent. We visited every day and
took her out regularly, including to our home and for
sleep-overs. The same went for my mum. Mum was diagnosed
with dementia. And I was thoroughly involved in mum's
nursing home with all the programs and activities. I
made sure that none of our mum's felt alo0ne.

I have spent time in a nursing home for respite both
after my falls and after my husband's fall. And in
rehab as well. I found the staff amazing and dedicated
and got on well with all of them. I also made friends
with the other residents and took part in all of the
activities. Nursing homes for me don't pose and fears.
Hopefully, I shall do well no matter where I end up.

I also wish Prof Don Aitkin all the best - and to keep
writing and sharing his views and expertise with us.
Stay strong Sir and remember that you are very highly
regarded and loved by so many.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 July 2021 1:45:58 PM
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This reference features a unique Illuminated Understanding of death, dying, and everything else too.
http://www.deathanddyingwisdom.com
Posted by Daffy Duck, Thursday, 29 July 2021 7:11:52 PM
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Don- Take care mate- If it helps- when you go I'll remember you for your virtues and for your contribution to our woven traditions- but I hope to continue to hear your voice through your writing.

I try to read your posts when I can.

Sometimes I walk through a war memorial reading every name plate placed by their families- truly great- some discredit the past- for me it's here woven into the present- I guess they can't see- sad.

I'm sure often you feel your family is so far away in time and space- and you're trapped with strangers in a strange place run by strange people- I hope that at these times you consider us as confidants in your journey- just a key away.

I sometimes disdain the weakness of my own reflection- the paradox of the acknowledged facts- human's are social beings.

For the wise- a word is enough.

Take care mate.

We'll all be where you are soon enough
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 30 July 2021 5:12:56 AM
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I first came across Don Aitken back in the mid 1970s. He wrote for a weekly newspaper/magazine called The National Times which was the finest newspaper this country has ever produced. It covered issues in depth and often had two journalists cover the same issue from different perspectives. The paper saw the coming together of several excellent journalists and writers and quite a few book grew out of that journalism, such as "Elect the Governor-General" and "the Crisis in Australian Capitalism".

Don wrote a weekly article for the paper. It was my first introduction to data and statistically based political and social science and became the favourite regular column in the paper. Although column isn't the right word since he was given a entire page, generally the inside back page, to develop his arguments.

I seem to think that Don's book, "Surveys of Australian Political Science" grew out of these articles. For me, his writings opened up a whole new way to view the political and social landscape and I remain grateful for that early learning.

I was pleased to see that, a decade or two later, he and I had travelled similar paths to arrive at conclusions about the great global warming scare - again statistics and empirical data informing the conclusion.

I had an old distant uncle in my youth who you'd only see once a year if that. But he was wise and well-read and I always sought him out at the occasional family function he'd attend. I think of Don like that - a distant acquaintance who was pivotal at an important part of my development.

It's difficult to think of such people growing old and less robust. I can but hope that the facility he now inhabits is as kindly as that which housed my mother and that he gets those 4 more years.

It's sobering to realise that the great battles of our youth are but confetti at our death. All we can hope for is that we leave, as Don will have left, a legacy of a life well lived.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 30 July 2021 7:46:22 AM
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mhaze

Or the view of the world from the overly comfortable balcony of the over opinionated .
It’s a strange world.

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 30 July 2021 8:21:38 AM
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Diver Dan,

Sorry but that's way tooooo cryptic for this poor sole to comprehend.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 30 July 2021 10:10:21 AM
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On Nursing Homes....

Over the past two years I have held Enduring Guardianship for three octogenarians, being the main contact for the medical establishment for all three. One lives with us, one in a small unit in a retirement village and one in a nursing home.
Today one has become a nonagenarian and my mother passed in June.

She had been in a nursing home for two years. The decision to put her there had been wrenching and drawn out with all efforts made by the medical establishment and family to make living at home viable. But ultimately it was clear that she required 24/7 care.

Despite stories of people putting elderly family into these homes just so they could be rid of them, I didn't see any of that. Indeed, even after a year of trying hard to keep her at home, the nursing home and hospital authorities reviewed the case to satisfy themselves that all was above board.

She had advancing dementia and was therefore in a dementia ward. It's impossible to call these pleasant places, necessary as they are. But the care was superb and the staff mostly beyond reproach.
In her more lucid moments she demanded release but increasingly she sunk into a fantasy world which seemed vaguely pleasant for her.

She'd been battling a rare blood disease for 20 years but ultimately the drugs ceased to be effective. Over the last month she was heavily sedated and kept pain free. The last week she was basically in a drug coma. The nursing home had a special room set aside for those in their final throes and each member of the family had a chance to spend some time with her saying their farewells and assuring her it was OK for her to go. I was with her the night she just stopped breathing.

Many complain about these places, but I have nothing but relief that her final years were spent in the best place she could be, not just for her but also for her increasingly distressed husband, dealing with his own dementia.
/cont
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 30 July 2021 11:07:21 AM
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/cont

While she was in a dementia ward, the facility also had what is referred to by the medicos and others as a hostel. This was a place where the elderly could be housed and looked after when living at home is no longer viable but where 24/7 nursing isn't required. The people there ambulatory and able to tend to their own showering etc. But they are provided with meals and snacks. Entertainment of a sort is provided as well as regular outings.

The main advantage of these places is that it provides companionship. Don has clearly formed some friendships and I saw others in the hostel I'm familiar with who form tight bonds of friendship.

It is true that these places are often referred to as God's waiting room but its not quite true. These aren't places where people go to die, but just their last relocation. It's for people who have run out of options as to where to live. I know of some who've been there for a decade or more.

This generation of octogenarians and nonagenarians is unique in human experience. No society has ever been faced with the question as to what to do with a whole demographic that lives into its 80s/90s. We still have a long way to go to work that problem out but my own experience as regards those in my charge, is that we are doing a pretty good job.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 30 July 2021 11:07:29 AM
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mhaze

Sometimes life is shocking, and sometimes people are disrespectful.
“Let the dead bury the dead” a phrase attributable to Christ.
And it is not wise to assume everybody you engage with, will naturally fall into line.

Here is my view for a new age nursing home:
Issue Nuns Habits and reversed collars to the nursing home inhabitants, sack the staff and allow nature to have its way.

The number of elderly I see as I’m ticking along, that should be cared for in those facilities and aren’t, are effectively excluded on the grounds of affordability.

If it upsets a few of the more sensitive to be enlightened to real world realities, bad luck.

And just as a reminder of the struggle life is to those unwashed hordes, this past week I’ve been close (again and still), to two suicide attempts, both young women in their thirties.

That’s how our young are passing away. Less sop and more reality mate!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 30 July 2021 12:15:50 PM
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A bit late in the but the Philosopher who provided the inspiration for the website that I posted pointed out that most people essentially get brutalized by the system in the final years of their lives, especially in the case of the US. Jessica Mitford exposed the brutalities of the system in her classic book The American Way of Death.

But then again American "culture" in particular specializes in brutalizing every aspect of human life beginning in the womb and then through the birthing process, as babies, toddlers, infants etc - such brutalizing is described on this site http://www.wombecology.com and this site too http://www.ttfuture.org
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 30 July 2021 8:01:12 PM
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“Glorious is the power of the art of contradiction.”

You consistently contradict the status quo, but do you really understand the nature of the status quo ?

What point do you make other than the demonstration of your contrary nature?

Are you a noun or an adjective DD.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 30 July 2021 10:39:27 PM
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Diver Dan,

What are you raving about? I feel like you missed a post somewhere which explains why you are so frantic about aged care or the aged.

You accuse me of expecting people to fall into line but don't actually seem to know what this 'line' is or where I expected others to accept it.

As best I can work it out you seem to have erroneously concluded that youth suicide is caused by money spent on aged care....or something.

But perhaps the whole thing is the manic scream of the ignorant, since you are completely wrong about needed aged being "effectively excluded on the grounds of affordability". While its true that many aged care facilities require a payment many more others don't and places are 100% subsidised by the government. But what have the facts got to do with it when in manic rant mode, eh?
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 31 July 2021 8:48:15 AM
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Having read all the comments made to your reflective piece, Don, I was not really surprised that none commented on the spiritual and religious dimension of living and dying. it is a reflection of the deep secularisation that has infected modern humanity - one that ultimately sees the futility of a life which ends without purpose - in death itself.

But perhaps this is the best time in our lives to regain that genuine sense of purpose in a faith that assures us that death is a new beginning. 'I am the way, the truth and the life' (Jn 14:16) that assures you that you were created by a loving God to spend an eternity with him. His resurrection is a sign to you, Don, that you are called to a new and life of eternal peace within the Kingdom of God with the blessed who have gone before you.

Even now, to pick up a copy of the Gospels and reflect on its eternal significance for you by understanding that you are called ultimately not to die - but to live with him who has loved you from all eternity. In faith, I hope you follow that way, and experience the rest and peace that all of us ultimately want. May our Lord, a merciful, loving, forgiving - and welcoming God - be with you at this significant time. Please be assured of my prayers.
Posted by Yuri, Saturday, 31 July 2021 2:03:55 PM
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Thank you Yuri.

Indeed, isn't this whole world God's waiting room?

"As a person sheds worn-out garments and wears new ones, likewise, at the time of death, the soul casts off its worn-out body and enters a new one." [Bhagavad-Gita 2:22]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 31 July 2021 10:07:31 PM
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mhaze

The article is headed “death and dying”.

My comment is exactly inside the bounds.

You don’t do “hysterical ” well!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 1 August 2021 7:04:15 AM
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Yuri

Do you miss the point of the Christian message. It is loud and clear, our own salvation (for the believer), is the coincidence of belief in the one and only purpose of it; “all “ praise to God!

Reading the Gospel of Thomas, (IE the book available to the early Christian Church, since removed), gives a clear insight into the journey here on earth. It clearly states that heaven and hell are here and now on earth: Death is the parting of the physical body and the entry of the spirit into a non physical realm.

Yuyutsu

What is your personal belief system, I’m lost trying to work it out for myself!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 1 August 2021 7:21:40 AM
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Dear Dan,

May God bless you. I am a student of and try to follow the teachings of the Vedanta school of Hindu philosophy.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 1 August 2021 11:14:20 AM
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Yuyutsu

My knowledge of the Krishnas, was from the early sixties in Kings Cross.
They had a soup kitchen which was popular, and very visible for the times.
They were a happy lot.

What was your traditional religion, prior to Hindu?

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 1 August 2021 9:46:55 PM
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Dear Dan,

So sorry, but I am unable to divulge such private information on a public forum.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 1 August 2021 10:53:49 PM
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Yuyutsu

Ok. Keeping the question more generalised, and for the sake of curiosity; anecdotally I have personally concluded, people appear to me to choose a working model religion for themselves to perform the task of placating the fear of death.
That’s a fear that presents itself in many disguises.

Our old mate Don, the author of this article, is in the category of the overly comfortable in life, who rely on the accumulation of wealth and other worldly securities, to give themselves a (blind IMO) sense of satisfaction from self achievement, which smothers the nagging question of humanity, IE. what after death? Death is the great leveller, that’s what I love about the view from this side of life!

Now onwards! The greatest misconception Christians (nominal), blindly believe, is their misconception their belief takes them to a better world: The narrow road V the broad road.

Now we get to the point. What is your motivation, (as a comparison to the belief system of Christianity), to make a personal choice towards the teaching of Hinduism?

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 2 August 2021 7:09:25 AM
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Dear Dan,

«people appear to me to choose a working model religion for themselves to perform the task of placating the fear of death.»

Scripture tells us why people approach religion:

"four kinds of pious people engage in my devotion - the distressed, the seekers after knowledge, the seekers of worldly possessions, and those who are situated in knowledge." [Bhagavad-Gita 7:16]

The fear of death is clearly a cause for distress, so it falls into the first (probably the most common) category.

«Our old mate Don...»

Assuming this to be the case, there's nothing wrong with it, a necessary step in one's evolution towards God. Someone who seeks wealth may pray to God to get it, thereby falling into the third category. Two verses later, Shri Krishna mentions that all four types of seekers are noble.

«The greatest misconception Christians (nominal), blindly believe, is their misconception their belief takes them to a better world: The narrow road V the broad road.»

Well only if this belief propels them into good actions and avoidance of evil!

«What is your motivation...»

Most important is my personal motivation to approach God, rather than a specific religion.

Since early childhood I have naturally been wanting to know about God. Still so, but other motives were added over the years, essentially to eliminate suffering, and especially to never ever be conscripted again. Nobody of course would want to take me now in my mature age, but if I am to be born again then only God can protect me from going through that nightmare all over again.

Now in my darkest hour of despair, I was 19 at the time and got a short leave from the army when I stumbled upon and initiated into Hindu-based meditation. I can only say that the sky opened up for me at the time, I found hope and inner strength and inner peace beyond anything I could imagine. There's no way I could have survived that terrible period otherwise. Only much later, and still, I got to also seriously study the religion and philosophy behind my experience.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 2 August 2021 5:13:08 PM
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Yuyutsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdwLAD7VEJ0

I put a disclaimer here, since this is OLO, and the following is my interpretation of the comparative nature between Christianity and Hinduism. I’d be interested to hear your own.

I’ve put this link to a profound song (J D Hart), which defines the impossible road to travel for the Christian to meet his God, once having passed through the vail of death, at the end of this physical life. It’s beyond good works.

If one is not a believer in the spirit world, and the war between good and evil in that spiritual realm, then as a Christian you are not one.
The Christian walk, as opposed to Hinduism, must ignore the influences of emotions, and focus its energy onto the interpretation of, and recognition of the spiritual influences

Hinduism to my limited experience with it through the 60’s when it was more out there, as they say, appeared to be very fixed on emotional cognition. Good works were connected to good feelings.
It’s a religion the carnal man can identify with, without the need for a trust in a third party such as The Christian need for Christ as a go between to his God. Very difficult.

Your conversion story had the hallmarks of Paul’s conversion to Christianity on the road to Damascus.
I don’t think religious conversions necessarily need happen in such a startling way as that. But that’s another conversation maybe.

Well thank you for your time Yuyutsu.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 2 August 2021 9:39:27 PM
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Thank you Dan,

I think you got age-old Hinduism mixed up with the 20th-century populist New-Age movement. How different they are!

Hinduism is all about the spiritual realm and in fact is very close, if not even identical, to the teachings of Christ once you have a good translator to bridge the cultural differences in the terms in use.

Here for example is an excerpt from the sacred Hindu scripture of the Bhagavad-Gita, the last few verses (39-43) of Chapter 3:

[
39. The knowledge of even the most discerning gets covered by this perpetual enemy in the form of insatiable desire, which is never satisfied and burns like fire, O son of Kunti.
40. The senses, mind, and intellect are said to be breeding grounds of desire. Through them, it clouds one’s knowledge and deludes the embodied soul.
41. Therefore, O best of the Bharatas, in the very beginning bring the senses under control and slay this enemy called desire, which is the embodiment of sin and destroys knowledge and realization.
42. The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.
43. Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
]

Hinduism agrees with Christianity that "good works" on their own cannot bring you to God. Yes, good works bring you to a better world, and although it is often translated as "heaven", it is not the heaven that Jesus speaks of, consisting of union with God. Once shedding one's body, those with very good deeds go to that better world (called "Swarga"), enjoy their time immensely there, perhaps a very long time, but then eventually their merit is exhausted and they need to return to earth to continue their spiritual struggle there.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 2 August 2021 11:26:30 PM
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Yuyutsu

Christian apologetics is an arm of literature. Is there a similar that takes a pragmatic view of Hinduism?
Man and his soul refuses to be separated from the spirit.
I’m perversely amused at the atheists attempts to achieve the impossible. Even the Chinese Communists gave up on that one.
It’s been a joy as usual Yuyutsu.

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 3 August 2021 8:31:47 AM
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Examining truth is always a good way to smooth over the bumps in life.
And the truth is; at first we didn't exist.
Then there came in to being a unique computer programme.
(our parents made that happen)
We are that computer programme.
It runs continuously throughout life, inside our brain.
When it started rolling and controlling, life began for us.
When it stops, we will cease to be.
The time between these two happenings is life.
There was no life before birth, and there will be no life after death.
For the computer programme is all we are or were.

A computer programme is an intangible thing.
We cannot see it or hear it directly.
But luckily, it interfaces with the world around it by means of our physical being.
Our body serves as both the support system for the brain, and the communication system for the programme running there.
The body is also a necessary vehicle for reproduction.
When our brain stops, we cease to be; totally.
All functions and memories that were us come to a full stop.
The body dies too, but is there until it is recycled by natural processes.

Afterwards, we might be remembered by those who are still alive?
And in a sense, some part of us lives on in our children.
Any changes we made to the world around us will remain for a time too.
But that is it. There is nothing else.
Life is short, and as sweet as we make it.
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Saturday, 21 August 2021 8:42:09 PM
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