"God took it from them and gave it to us".
- Same crap that started this mess.

- If you always do as you've always done then you'll always get what you always got -

Israel is illegitimate.
The people living in Palestine enjoyed the right of self-determination, written into both the Atlantic Charter in 1941 and United Nations founding documents in 1945 prior to the establishment of Israel as a modern state 1947.

Israel was founded after an act of terrorism;
- The bombing of the Kind David Hotel.
And the people responsible for this act of terrorism, formed the Likud Party.

I'm getting sick and tired of David and his violin.

But AC

Pseudonym "David's" unquestioning support for "Bibi Baby" Netanyahu [1] as the only possible Israeli PM, should be respected.

Even if David Ben-Gurion [2] rose from the dead, and stood for PM, pseudonym "David" would ignore the great Ben. His many doubters MAY think his whole OLO writing career MAY be to serve Bibi Baby's interests.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

You may well be right, David?

However, if it survives long enough for the former PM to face judgement in Israeli courts! It will have done its job, but particularly if it enacts the one piece of legislation that counts, Namely, that anyone with a conviction in their CV/history, can not be elected or employed in any government/public service capacity!

Then they will remain free to disagree on everything including who should be conscripted? For mine, what's good for the goosey goose, good for the gander!

And that the key to an enduring peace has to be a negotiated two-state solution all sides can accept and live with! And could be kick-started with a referendum for all Jewish citizens?

A opposed the vexatious mischief-making of those with skin in the current paradigm/status quo, David?
Alan B.

Dear Critic,

«And the people responsible for this act of terrorism, formed the Likud Party.»

King David Hotel was blown up because it was the headquarters of British intelligence and contained the files with the information about and evidence against the members of the three Jewish undergrounds: the socialist Haganah, the revisionist Etzel (Irgun) and the extremist-terrorist Lehi. The original plans were made by the Haganah and the operation was coordinated with three simultaneous targets supposed to be attacked simultaneously. The Etzel received the hotel as its target and succeeded while the other two failed (the other targets were a nearby British office building in Jerusalem and a British military camp in Haifa).

The Haganah leaders ended up forming Israel's Labor party (which ruled Israel for many years, including in the 1967 war), while the revisionist leader, Menachem Begin (to later become Nobel prize laureate for peace), formed the Herut party. Herut eventually joined a bunch of other parties to form the Likud. Whatever ideology and values the Likud may once have had, are long gone and Likud is currently Netanyahu's personal cult. Begin's own son, turned away in disgust from the Likud and recently joined the "New Hope" party, part of the new coalition.

Netanyahu, BTW, was born in 1949, while King David Hotel was blown up in 1946.

---

Dear David,

When I was small I promised to never grow up.

Could you imagine the ensuing blood-trail had I kept all my vows as a 3-year old? It would certainly include that evil witch who was my nanny and several kindergarten teachers, not to mention certain primary school teachers who also deserved to die...

But we do grow and mellow over the years and most people consider it a good thing that we learn to forgive, rather than blaming/shaming us for failing to stick with our erstwhile words.

A new government of reconciliation and mutual respect is forming in Israel. Agreeing to disagree on certain matters is a sign of maturity.

Anyone who is not allowed to share what they have with others, does not really own it!

Hi Armchair Critic, plantagenet, Alan B & Yuyutsu...

1, Leftism & Islam are the two most negative, evil religions in world history.

2, Leftism & Islam are in coalition with each other against modern, western civilisation.

3, There will NEVER be peace on earth until Leftism & Islam cease to exist.

There's nothing complicated about any of this. It's ALL very simple.

They're intention is to kill or enslave us all. Defend yourself, die or enjoy your slavery.

Hi imacentristmoderate,

I think you're being a bit of a drama queen about it.

Leftism and Islam...

A socialist point of view doesn't seem unreasonable as a valid argument against some of the problems that capitalism brought.
That's why we had labour unions.

A basic standard of health and education for all citizens are positive things.
Leftism in and of itself isn't a bad thing, and its kind of essential for balance.

Likewise Islam is just ONE religion.
Why call out only ONE religion for it's shortcomings
- without calling ALL OF THEM OUT

I do.

Hi Armchair Critic,

1, Capitalism NEVER brought ANY problems. Try reading a history book NOT written by a left wing humanities academic. You might actually learn something.

2, Labour unions NEVER did anything good. We had industry associations that cared about workers before trade unions existed. Are you suggesting that a father would hate his own son? Fathers in family owned small businesses usually don't hate their own children.

3, "a basic standard of health & education for all citizens is a good thing" & leftism had NOTHING to do with it. Presbyterians invented it, but you already knew that didn't you? Leftists have destroyed Australia's health & education systems, but you already knew that didn't you?

4, The conservative christians have been "calling out" false prophets like you & ALL negative religions on earth for thousands of years, but you already knew that didn't you?

5, Why don't you call out the radical, extreme, religious cult of leftism, which is the most evil, negative religion in world history?

Leftists lie & people die. All fail the fascist left.

Dear imaFarRightNutter

AC is right. Leftwing attitudes, along with moderate conservatism (my leaning) have produced the stable Westminster democracy we enjoy today.

Before you accuse moderates (which you are not) of Woke-ism - just look in the mirror.

You'll see the product of 4 years of Trump's (Mr Cult of Personality with rich Daddy's) warped Far Right teachings.

Dear Imacentristmoderate,

I am puzzled why you included my name in your address (Wednesday, 9 June 2021 7:31:45 AM).

Your three points are indeed very simple, simplistic in fact, and I disagree with them all.

Hi plantagenet, Please name one positive leftist attitude?

Will our stable westminster democracy survive colonisation by communist china?

Do you genuinely believe that Sleepy Joe Biden is not worse than Trump & why, please be specific?

Hi Yuyutsu, Please name one other religion that is worse than either leftism or islam?

Both leftists & islamists have stated publicly that they are coalition against western civilisation.

Both leftists & islamists have pledged publicly to destroy western civilisation.

Hi AC and Yuyutsu

imacentristmoderate is just a rogue, Off Topic, stirrer contributing nothing to the Israeli Political subject of this article-thread.

I suggest best to ignore im.

Dear Imacentristmoderate,

Plantagenet is correct in stating that this discussion is going off topic: I will answer you this once, but then I suggest that if you wish to continue with the issues you raised, then you ought to begin a new thread.

«Hi Yuyutsu, Please name one other religion that is worse than either leftism or islam?»

There is no such thing as a bad religion. All religions are good because they lead their followers towards God.

Now due to the age we live in, alongside each and every religion there are also abusers, bad apples if you wish to name them so, who cynically hitch-hike on and twist the spiritual tenets and practices to forward their ulterior motives, which can also include tribal, social, political, economic, national or cultural motives.

Since these abuses are social/national/political in nature, it would be a mistake to refer to them as "religious". It is like criticising drinking water due to algae that developed over the water-pipes: the water inside the pipes is still pure.

I don't personally know anyone who applies leftism as a religion, but as I cannot exclude this possibility, if anyone indeed uses leftism as a path to God, then they have my blessings. As for Islam, I know people who have grown both spiritually and as decent people as a result of following that path - for them, Islam is a religion, not a tribal/political stance, so they too have my blessings. For the others who claim to be Muslim and to that extent, their Islam, whatever it is, is simply not a religion.

Hi plantagenet, the article is about whether an Israeli government can survive either radical, extreme leftism or radical, extreme islamism.

I'm saying NO government can survive either radical, extreme leftism or radical, extreme islamism & there is certainly NO government that can survive both. Which is ON topic.

Hi Yuyutsu, Are you seriously suggesting there are no negative religions? There are many religions that have promoted violence.

Hero worshipping Pol Pot is hardly positive. Devil worship, satanism & luciferianism are hardly positive.

Have you read the Quran in the correct chronological order?

Muhammad fits the profile of a false prophet perfectly, as does Karl Marx.

The ALP worships a "wolf in sheep's clothing" which is hardly positive. Leftism & Islamism are both clearly Devil Worship. How can that be good for Israel or any other country?

Hey Yuyutsu,

Me: "And the people responsible for this act of terrorism, formed the Likud Party."

You: "Netanyahu, BTW, was born in 1949, while King David Hotel was blown up in 1946."

My response: Nothing to do with Benjamin Netanyahu;
- Menachem Begin was head of the Irgun at that time (Kind David Hotel Bombing), and he was a founder of the Likud Party.
- That's the link I'm making in my argument; Menachem Begin, not Bibi.

Hi Plantagenet
"imacentristmoderate is just a rogue, off topic, stirrer contributing nothing to the Israeli Political subject of this article-thread."

Not sure I'm contributing too much this time.
I've probably watched or read about all the things he's whinging about truth be told;
I supported Trump over Hillary, that's for sure.
(In the beginning at least - bit luke warm on the way he handled Covid but Democrats didn't make things easy);
- And I loathe progressives and the pc ideology generally;
- Just as I loathe Biden and almost all the other Democrats.
I know a few things about Islam, and I've posted links to show I do.
I know about the 5 pillars of Islam, and their religious, political and military aspects.
I know the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto;
I know who the Fabian society are.
I wouldn't know all the things I know pertaining to Jewry if I hadn't taken the conspiracy side road I did.

But I still try to keep my feet on the ground, and make reasonable arguments based on merit.

Hi imacentristmoderate,
"Capitalism NEVER brought ANY problems."
"Labour unions NEVER did anything good."

- The way my brain works, is to firstly look at the Pro's and Con's of all issues;
- And then I use that knowledge to see flaws in others arguments.

So let me change the argument and make it 'Dying on the job due to poor safety'
- Did Labour unions promote safer working environments?

Don't you consider dying on the job a poor outcome?
Or do you wish more died at work to improve profit margins?

Dear Imacentristmoderate,

First, thank you for clarifying how your posts relate to this thread.

Whether or not governments in general can survive extreme Islamism, extreme leftism or both, is not quite relevant because neither of Israel's new coalition parties subscribes to the "extreme" description.

Also, you may or may not be aware that in Israeli terminology, "left" and "right" mostly pertain to attitudes towards the 1967 occupation, rather than to economic policies as they do in the rest of the world.

Still the differences are big, but the parties made a sincere agreement to set them aside, to keep the status-quo and make changes in those delicate areas where agreement is not possible only with the agreement of both prime-ministers. Time will tell, but I do believe that this government will survive.

«Hi Yuyutsu, Are you seriously suggesting there are no negative religions?»

Yes, by definition: religion is that which brings one closer to God, and this is always a positive outcome.

«There are many religions that have promoted violence.»

No - there are indeed some groups and ideologies that are mistakenly and/or fraudulently claiming to be or are accepted as "religions". Violence never brings one closer to God, so all one can say about such groups and ideologies is that they are not truly religions.

«Hero worshipping Pol Pot is hardly positive. Devil worship, satanism & luciferianism are hardly positive.»

- nor are they religious practices.

«Muhammad fits the profile of a false prophet perfectly, as does Karl Marx.»

We know about Marx, his life is historically well documented, but what do we really know about Muhammad?
All we now have is just the Koran, that was written some 120 years after his death along the fake Hadith that claims Muhammad to be its author. My feeling is that Muhammad himself was a saint, a man of God, who lived in a cave and had no idea about the nonsense that was later attributed to him.

Dear Critic,

«Menachem Begin was head of the Irgun at that time (Kind David Hotel Bombing), and he was a founder of the Likud Party.»

And so also the leaders of the Haganah who later found the Labor party.

They all planned to attack British targets simultaneously.
The difference between them is just that Begin's attack of King David Hotel was successful while the Haganah's attack failed.

It was the Labor leaders that conducted 1967's "six day" war and the following evictions and occupation: Menachem Begin and his party were in opposition at the time.
It was a Labor government, headed by Rabin in 1976, which allowed the first Jews to settle in the occupied West Bank (in Sebastia).
Besides the heroic official stories, we now understand the true, unspoken, motive behind the occupation - it was Moshe Dayan's (then defense-minister) wish to enhance his private archaeological artifact collection by robbing archaeological sites in the West Bank... so different to the extreme and legendary honesty and integrity of Menachem Begin, whether or not we like his ideology.

Now some debate whether violent self-defense is legitimate despite the casualties. Others debate whether or not the Jewish population of Israel in the 1940's could survive without defending itself, solely by relying on British troops and wondering what would happen once the British leave the land. In any case, under the assumption that the Jewish undergrounds acted in legitimate self-defense, I see nothing particularly cruel, outrageous or extraordinary about attacking the enemy's intelligence installation where the files with personal information and evidence against them was kept - especially given that sufficient warning was given to the British to leave the building in time to save their lives but not these files.

Hi Yuyutsu

Where you said on Wednesday, 9 June 2021 3:35:57 PM

"As for Islam, I know people who have grown both spiritually and as decent people as a result of following that path - for them, Islam is a religion, not a tribal/political stance, so they too have my blessings."

I agree with you. Very true. Just gotta talk to them.

When I was debriefing radical Palestinians in London, in 1981, in the neutral environment of controlled drinking in a safely monitored and peopled British pub

they were quite open that they had ambivalent views about Israel. Israel, according to them, was the "Devil they knew".

They said Israel brought prosperity and order, despiter Israel's many sins.

This is akin to the People's Front of Judea "terrorists" in the Life of Brian comprehensively answering "What have the Romans given us in return?" Answer "the Aquaduct, sanitation, and the roads, irrigation, medicine, education and the wine, public baths, and its safe to walk in the streets at night" http://youtu.be/uvPbj9NX0zc?t=53s

These Palestinians did not say the Israelis "brought Peace" however. A rather significant sticking point, that haunts everyone, Palestinian and Israeli, to this day.

Other times, ALSO LONG BEFORE GOVERNMENT SERVICE FOR ANY COUNTRY, debriefing IRA financial supporters, who hung out, in their words as "token revolutionaries at Soviet Embassy cocktail parties" I'll discuss some other time.

Hi Armchair Critic,

I'm NOT suggesting the world was perfect before the leftism disease began infecting the planet. Just that leftism has made everything worse.

"Dying on the job" was solved last century & this century leftism brought it back. With leftist trade unions, leftist politicians & leftist public servants 100% responsible.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Leftists behave exactly like they are loyal members of a radical, extreme religious cult & Leftism behaves exactly like a radical, extreme, religious cult.

Your chosen online name would suggest some Asian influence or ethnicity. The Yin/Yang symbol is about negative energy & positive energy. Many religions revell in negative energy & "getting closer" to Satan or Lucifer or the Devil. Kali is an evil Hindu God worshipped by the Thuggees, an organised crime gang who revelled in violence & death.

We DO know heaps about Muhammad. There are 3 holy books in Islam, Quran, Sirah (a biography of Muhammad) & Hadith which can still be added to today, as it is the rulings of Islamic judges based on the teachings of Muhammad.

There are heaps of direct quotes from Muhammad in the Quran & all 3 books are cross referenced against each other. Try reading Surah 9 which is the last instruction Muhammad ever received from Allah & abrogates ALL previous "peaceful" Surahs.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an

Good Muslim terrorists don't care about your "feelings" regarding Muhammad. Only following his example of death, destruction, rape & theft.

Hi plantagenet,

My uncle was a WW2 (military intelligence) veteran who began his counter terrorism career in Israel after WW2, spent time behind the Iron Curtain & finished his counter terrorism career in Northern Ireland.

None of what you or any other commenter has said, alters the fact that 100% of ALL terrorism today comes from either radical, extreme Leftism or radical, extreme Islamism.

imacentristmoderate

You're rather repeditive, selectively scapegoating Muslims and the majority of UK, Australian and West European politicians who ARE Leftist by US standards.

For example a National Health Scheme concept in the US is considered Leftist, Socialist, nay even Communist, by most Republicans. With Republicans being cowered into cloying loyalty to your hero Trump http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Police_state .
_____________________

YOUR UNCLE?

Lucky he wasn't blownup or shot dead by:

- one of the post WWII JEWISH Terrorist groups in Israel-Palestine

OR THE

- Catholic CHRISTIAN Terrorist IRA

OR

- one of the numerous extremist Protestant CHRISTIAN Terrorist factions in Northern Ireland.

Dear Imacentristmoderate,

Your last post is so confused that I don't even know where to begin relating to it.

For example, a statement like:
«Leftism behaves exactly like a radical, extreme, religious cult.»
ridiculously assumes the existence of some particular behaviour that is common to all radical, extreme, religious cults.

Your bundling of Asian "influences" and religions (including so-called "religions") exposes your complete absence of study in the matter.

As for Islam, I draw my conclusions from watching the many presentations of the anti-Islamic researcher, Robert Spencer. While Spencer concludes from the vast amount of information he gathered that Muhammad never existed, my conclusion from the same information is that Muhammad had actually lived, yet had nothing to do with the Koran and Hadith, that were written about 120 years after his death, nor with the tribal wars he supposedly led or with the alleged murder and rapes wrongly attributed to him. You are thus free to and may legitimately criticise the movement that is, rightly or wrongly, commonly called "Islam", but that is not grounds for criticising the innocent prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

If you have pointed information, then please present it: blanket generalisations will not take you far.

Wasting your time Yuyutsu

imacentristmoderate is just a no knowledge yankee yobbo.

Hi plantagenet...

1, Health care for all was invented by the Presbyterian churches of Holland & Scotland during the PROTEST-ant Christian Reformation or PROTEST-ant Christian enlightenment.

2, Since when did i say that terrorism shortly after WW2 didn't include Jewish terrorists? Jewish terrorists retired after Israel was formed & there haven't been ANY Jewish terrorists since then.

3, The IRA was absolutely NOT Christian or Catholic. The IRA was & still is secular, humanistic, atheistic, scientific socialism or international socialists or communists.

4, The Unionist terrorists of Northern Ireland were national socialists or patriotic socialists or fascists or nazis. Next you will be telling me the BNP wasn't popular in Northern Ireland.

Hi Yuyutsu...

Are you seriously suggesting that medical science isn't scientific?
Are you seriously suggesting that psychiatrists don't study human behaviour to diagnose mental illnesses?
Are you seriously suggesting that psychiatrists don't study human behaviour in groups or cults?

As for Islam...

Like Christianity there are plenty of other historical records besides the Bible, Quran, Sirah & Hadith which confirm the existence of Muhammad.

These sources also confirm EVERYTHING Muhammad said & did during his time as the 1st leader of Islam.

Please read the Quran in it's correct chronological order before discussing Islam any more. You have NO chance of understanding Islam until you have NOT read it in the correct chronological order.

Same for you plantagenet.