Condemned via allegation. This is one of the most disgraceful episodes in our history. If anyone should be brought to book it is the Australian politicians, particularly the Prime Ministers, who sent our troops to the world's shitholes in the first place. We have only one enemy that might need fighting in the future - China. The way that this country is talking about the ADF will see nobody wanting to defend it.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

Not convinced this isn't an underhanded effort to further neuter our defensive capability

ttbn,
>Condemned via allegation.
Multiple allegations, many from the soldiers themselves, that were investigated and found to be credible. It's likely criminal charges will follow.

Do you really have a problem with that? Can you think of an alternative process that would not involve allegations?

>This is one of the most disgraceful episodes in our history.
Correct - some of our soldiers have been undermining our interests in the region.

Just like those American BLM protests who turned violent when they perceived they were under attack from the police, they ultimately betrayed their cause even though they didn't set out to be traitors.

>If anyone should be brought to book it is the Australian politicians, particularly the
>Prime Ministers, who sent our troops to the world's shitholes in the first place.
Maybe with hindsight they shouldn't've been sent there - but our PMs' decisions on this were for good reasons, and certainly weren't a crime.

>We have only one enemy that might need fighting in the future - China.
China is NOT our enemy. Though it now appears that President Xi is our enemy and is trying to stir up animosity between our countries - but there's no reason to help him!

>The way that this country is talking about the ADF will see nobody wanting to defend it.
The way they were talking about the Australian cricket team after the ball tampering scandal (which involved a worryingly similar culture of turning a blind eye) didn't put people off wanting to join it. Why should this be any different?

> "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night
> to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
Yes, and that's an important job. But in the long term it's better to reduce people's motive to do us harm.

jamo,

Our politicans are capable any underhanded acts these days. You are right to be suspicious of everything they say and do. There is little if any difference in the brands; they are probably all looking forward to the Great Reset, which includes no political system, but would still include at the top the political class that is well trained to lie and deceive; not to mention locking us down.

Even so, that's not an excuse any more than I was following orders!

One notes that in pre-war Nazi Germany, none of the known excesses were actually illegal!

Professional soldiers, follow the rules of engagement and do not set themselves up as Judge, Jury and executioner! Albeit, able to return fire with interest?

We've done ourselves no favours nor made it easier for those new intakes that follow!

It's not just the war that needs to be won, but hearts and minds also! And by all accounts, not how it's done!

Finally, these blokes need air cover on demand as well as dedicated artillery, that can be used to push back against terrorists wearing civies! And able to detonate IUDs with just a cell phone! We need tracking technology that can enable an immediate drone launched missile or artillery reprisal

We, President Trump, needs some testicular fortitude and able to use tactical nuclear weapons at critical border crossings that are currently as porous as Swiss cheese!

We also need to be able to incentivate the civilian population to give up the Taliban fighters in their midst! With say a crime stoppers anonymous dedicated phone service and a secret payment for legitimate outcomes. Not by inspiring fear and reprisals!

As things stand, the Russians have placed a bounty on the heads of US soldiers. And to the deafening silence of the current American President, who could respond, as suggested above.
Alan B.

Responsibility for invasion, the ensuing guerrilla warfare, civilian deaths and inevitable “war crimes”, must be identified; but for the purposes of this inquiry there must be strict application of the Yamashita Standard. The knee jerk punishment of squaddies is a diversion.

Certainly not condoning the actions of a few but it pales into insignificance when compared with the (alleged) number of civilians slaughtered by the Taliban.

Maybe if the Australian public weren't so mollycoddled and shielded like children these sorts of stories wouldn't have as much propaganda value to those who'd seek to undermine us.

ttbn, yes suspicion is definitely warranted. We've seen Chinese money buying loyalties of late. Dumb clumsiness and blind fear of bad press is just as dangerous.

ateday' yes indeed the alleged excesses of our troops pale in comparison to the exploits of their foes. Exploits our totally non partisan presstitute media never seem to see.

Mr James Gaynor, CSC

Here is another of the class we have little need for, to be put against the double brick wall at the Saturday local football match, and shot.

Traitorous low life!

Dan

Yes, you wouldn't think fair dinkum "Aussies" would do that sort of thing, killing the locals in cold blood. Never mind that our Frontier Wars lasted 140 years.

You won't see anything about the Frontier Wars at our AWM. But they do have a fantastic Australians-in-Afghanistan fairy story.

You mean holier than thou Australians behaving badly ? Nah !

According to Binoy Kampmark

1. 500 civilians were killed in Vietnamese village
"The killing of some 500 unarmed women, children and elderly men in the Vietnamese hamlet of My Lai on March 16, 1968 by soldiers of the US Americal Division"

2. 11 Afghani civilians were killed across Afghanistan by the SAS apparently as part of "blooding".

"It is also accurate to claim that Australian government officials were unaware of the enthusiastic, and sometimes incompetently murderous activities of the SAS in the country. On May 17, 2002, Australian special troops were responsible for the deaths of at least 11 Afghan civilians. They had been misidentified as al-Qaeda members. The defence minister at the time, Robert Hill, told journalist Brian Toohey via fax that the special forces had "well-defined personnel identification matrices" including "tactical behaviour", weapons and equipment. These suggested the slain were not "local Afghan people." This turned out to be nonsense: the dead were from Afghan tribes opposed to the Taliban."

Answer-

500 in one village is not the same as 11 across the whole of a country in wartime- it seems the author is conflating two different situations.

Given that part of the SAS's role is to shoot to kill and to engage in reconnaissance and close quarters sentry disposal (stab a sentry in the neck) often in very dangerous conditions where they are vastly outnumbered and out armed it is important that they are able to do it quickly, professionally, and quietly. This means that unfortunately they have to have some experience killing. Killing doesn't come naturally. This is the paradox of the military and the police- in order to have peace sometimes there is a need for violence and sometimes killing. That's why there needs to be constraint as to how the elite forces are used and when they are to be deployed. Politicians have to realise that when they allow elite forces to be used there are risks.

If the media and the greens believe they know a better way to manage Australian peace in the country to which they owe their peace then they should spend some time up front as shock troops to the army.

Many soldiers especially elite troops make significant sacrifices- they sometimes find it difficult to function in normal society- they often leave the military with terrible injuries- with little support.

But there is a view that there needs to be rules in the conduct of war- and in the conduct of war in zones which contain civilian elements- this is a paradox.

Civilians are used by militant groups in sophisticated strategies.

A standard communist tactic is to create conflict between the military and the community. Do you think communist countries conduct themselves better than our elite forces?

The elite forces are not to blame for the deaths- we should admire them for their sacrifice.

If there were less people in the world there would be less problems.

11 People in Afghanistan died so that millions could read- I honour their sacrifice- hopefully I can make such a significant contribution in my life.

War is complicated- with complex alliances- even if...

"These suggested the slain were not "local Afghan people." This turned out to be nonsense: the dead were from Afghan tribes opposed to the Taliban."

Fog of war.

Most members of the public have little understanding of war- that's because our soldiers do such a good job- if we harm them we harm ourselves.

It looks like nine Australian soldiers have killed themselves because of the deaths of eleven "Afghani civilians". Very sad.

"Nine Australian soldiers kill themselves in three weeks"

http://www.the-sun.com/news/1844438/nine-australian-soldiers-kill-themselves-report-war-crimes-afghanistan/

Perhaps the author is partially responsible for the Australian Soldiers deaths.

We don't defeat the Taliban by becoming them! As for the 140 frontier wars. Can't take any responsibility for any of that, save acknowledge there was that war and there were atrocities. All before I was even a glint in my Fathers eye, let alone a tilt in his kilt.

Let's find those who were responsible (the British crown?) and make them pay, not the settler's Grandkids, for heaven's sake. And not because they've got (criminal offence) white skin!

But back to Afghanistan, those we send there to kill in our name, need to be better prepared, better led and better psychologically profiled! [Those that grew up killing birds and other harmless creatures for the thrill of the kill with slug guns/22s and saw it as normalised behaviour, ought not go!] And better rested between tours of duty! Too much of this action also normalises it?
Alan B.

Yes Canem, that's spot on mate! They're too small in critical numbers and therefore used far too often and far too regularly.

The Taliban slip in and out from nearby Pakistan. (Their traditional winter hideout?) And cross the border with impunity every spring thaw to begin where they left off. And again as the winter chill begins.

We need to be able to track them to their winter hideout and kill them there! And as they come and go across that porous border! And take out a few high ranking Pakistani Generals who we know are complicit!

We also need to keep destroying the poppy crops that fund the Taliban campaign, as their sole source of funding!! And given the bulk of that could be accomplished remotely! That's how it should be done!

And also ensure the farmers earn more growing spuds or some such instead!

We would be better served as stationary farmer security, all the way to market, to deprive the Taliban any opportunity to compel the Farmers to comply with them! Or provide funding! And we need to keep killing them in their homes Even if that means deploying tactical nuclear weapons, until they get the message or go the way of the Dodo!

If they are forced to confront that unwavering implacable resolve and escalation?

They may have to consider another more peaceful way? The only real option! Us walking away after that much sacrifice and expenditure is not and never ought be an option we could consider!
Alan B.

Isn't it funny how the do-gooders whine & bitch when a country is in turmoil & the West "isn't doing anything" yet when the West sends in forces who have tio fight fire with fire then those same do-gooders whine & bitch about "bad conduct" !
I say let's send all those who are against a National Service & any kind of discipline that keeps us safe here, to those countries to sort out their mess !

"Charging somebody with murder in a place like this is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500." Charlie Sheen in Apocalypse Now.

The Taliban is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. Anybody who ever read anything on the fighting in Afghanistan knows the extraordinary lengths that Allied forces go to to prevent any of their soldiers being captured. This is because if you are an allied soldier and you get captured, the Taliban will cut the tendons om your arms and legs so that you can't move, then they will disembowel you. them leave you in the open so that you can see the wild dogs coming who will eat you alive.

That being said, it is hardly surprising if Allied soldiers don't worry too much about taking Taliban or ISIS prisoners themselves. One only has too look at the Pacific War in 1941-1945 to see what today lefty morons would call "war crimes" by allied soldiers against Japanese soldiers.

The Japanese started the Pacific war with a brutality not seen since Atilla the Hun. They gang raped and mass murdered captured allied nurses and nuns. They shot wounded allied soldiers in hospital beds. They tortured and executed most captured allied soldiers sparing only those fit for work who they generally worked to death. They executed civilian women and children, generally after raping the females first. They refused to surrender and even tried to kill those Allied soldiers who had the humanity to try to capture wounded Japanese.

In return, Allied soldiers routinely finished off all wounded Japanese soldiers. We shot up lifeboats full of Japanese survivors and even helpless Japanese soldiers struggling to stay afloat in the sea (Battle of the Bismarck Sea) and we dropped nuclear weapons on Japanese cities. If the enemy chooses not to slaughter you like civilized men, they can hardly complain if their enemies return the compliment. In such a situation, bugger the Geneva Convention.

In the next war only ABC luvvies and virtue signaling lefties should be conscripted to fight so that they can get a reality check.

Thank you LEGO.

I just love the way you put a finger on the pulse.

Mark Donaldson VC, alluded to this situation in his auto biography.

The real tragedy to me, is the way their own team members brought this nonsense down on their own heads.

There once was an ethic called loyalty. It’s the removal of loyalty amongst SAS soldiers
which will ultimately do the most damage.

Rightly or wrongly you stand together and back each other up, working through the consequences in private.

I stand by my post above. This nonsense perpetuated by the ABC is beyond disgraceful, and lands itself firmly in the camp of treacherous.

Dan

And Daniel Andrews killed 800 people. Where's his accountability?

The message to young people considering signing up is clear. Don't.

They'll send you to do the dirty work then throw you under a bus to wash themselves clean.

One has to commend the decent men, former SAS personal, for exposing this with conclusive, rank, serial number, time and day, collaborated evidence! And this shouldn't rest solely on the bloke pulling the trigger as if this was ok, something that occurred under extreme duress/under fire!

But needs to go higher up to those who were allegedly in charge and allowed it to occur on their watch, because they were, it seems, asleep at the wheel when they should have been driving the allegorical bus!

Should have been stamped on there and then!

[Sargent Green, place Private Black under arrest and remove his weapons. Then accompany him back to barracks where he will remain until this matter is dealt with officially!]

As I see it, overreacting now, with overkill to stuff he claimed he didn't see or allegedly walked past?

Sorry, not convinced by this ham acting performance. You were there and in charge! And the buck stops with you!?

Apparently, wants to be now seen to be responding for his own shortcomings as a responsible leader by the removal of the unit citation? Disagree! That citation still belongs to those blokes that earned it under fire and weren't part of the thrill kill/blood sport cabal!

This late-stage reaction, I believe, stinks of someone being seen as seeking to shift the spotlight away from his own leadership shortcomings in the field?

It should also be, where does the buck ultimately stop and with who? And they should also, e.g., shoulder their share of responsibility with loss of their own medals and post-service entitlements!?

Otherwise, the very culture that allowed this to occur? Remains in place and sheltered by a culture of enforced (jail-culture) silence and misplaced loyalty! And that is just not OK! OK?

Real men don't need any of this BS or are OK with being any part of it! OK?
Alan B.

Removing the citation isn't about the troops or even the alleged unlawful killings.
It's the uppers worrying about their own image. As always.

This nonsense perpetuated by the ABC is beyond disgraceful, and lands itself firmly in the camp of treacherous.
diver dan,
We really need another ABC, one for the patriotic citizens not the treasonous, Taxpayer funded yuppie club we have presently !