No, David. Your article relies on signatories, treaties and mandates which have never been agreed to by Palestinians. It's that simple. You call it a 'miracle' ... I would call it a crime against humanity.

All "gods" without exception whether masculine or feminine in their nomenclature, or mono-theistic and/or polytheistic are entirely and only projections of the collective psyche of the tribe that invents them.

In Truth and Reality the all-pervasive Divine Conscious Light that IS Reality Itself does not give any tribe the exclusive ownership of any real estate either in the long ago distant past or in the now time of the 21st century.

Nor does the Divine Conscious Light give any tribal group the exclusive status of the "chosen people".

Can`t disagree with the first two comments.

God will have His way and the hardened hearts of the Jewish people will receive their Messiah. All the frothing of the mouth won't stop God's purposes working out. Just ask Egypt.

It's time the Celts threw the Anglo-Saxons out of the British Isles. And the American Indians need to rise up and reclaim the whole of North America as their own. Same for Australian Aboriginal people as well, of course.
In other words, what happened 300 years ago is almost totally irrelevant to the modern world. Know and remember your history, no problem, but using ancient history to justify modern territorial ambitions is morally wrong and cannot be justified.

Hi Bernie,

The brilliant philosopher Foxy drew attention recently to a Russian proverb which goes something like

"Keep digging up the past and you can lose an eye. Forget the past and you will lose both eyes."

Neither Jewish nor Palestinian people are in danger of losing both eyes for some time yet.

This is quite a provocative move by the Israeli government, but on the other hand, the Palestinians seem to have blown their chances of ever having as State of their own. That could have happened 26 years ago and one wonders what the situation would be like now if Arafat and the successors to Rabin had pushed on with their Agreement.

The tide comes in, then it re-considers. In this case, will it ever come in again ?

Joe

So we will continue to see this behaviour escalate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r6phqEj4ps&feature=youtu.be

Hi loudmouth2. Thanks for the comment. I believe there are faults on both sides: the Israelis for taking land that does not belong to them and the Palestinians for not being prepared to negotiate a sensible compromise. In this case, two wrongs do not make a right and my view is that the international community needs to come down hard on both sides and force them to the negotiating table.

Hi Bernie,

I agree, but once people get into the joys of grievance politics, once they've discovered an insoluble dilemma - and provided they have self-interested parties as allies (or enemies of THEIR enemies) - they can play that victim game for as long as they like.

In the case of the Palestinians, both al Fatah and the PLO, in their different remnants of Palestine, can blame each other for all the consequences of not coming to the negotiating table. As time passes and the possibility of an agreement, as you suggest, becomes less feasible, they can play that game in the growing certainty that there will not be a solution.

On paper, which is about as far as it will go, there seem to be two alternatives to this situation:

* either Israel and Palestine become one secular state with equal rights for all;

or

* they form two separate states, with all Israeli settlements either being abandoned within an independent Palestine, or being administered under Palestine law and control.

Neither of these will ever get off the ground. So it will be stalemate and sniping for at least another seventy years.

Joe

Off Topic Again with Eden-Monaro's 2019 TPP margin corrected:

A Western entity has encouraged me to do an analysis of the EDEN-MONARO (E-M) By-Election result and to share it with you, using less formal wording.

SUMMARY

Main takeaways are that Labor are winning by a decreased (two party preferred (TPP)) majority. But Labor are only won on preferences - most significantly from the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party (SFFP). Main reason for that is SFFP voters being dissatisfied with Government's Bushfire performance – especially ScoMo’s holiday.

IN DETAIL

It is not surprising Labor won because in this situation. If the Libs won it would have be the first Fed Gov win beating an Opposition held seat candidate, in a by-election, for 100 years.

Looking at: http://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/HouseDivisionPage-25820-117.htm

- Labor only won due to preferences. Most significantly/oddly from the SFFP. Libs would have won if they negotiated the usual preference deal with SFFP. A significant number of SFFP voters have likely been burned out, or very threatened, by the bushfires (holidaying ScoMo's main mistake).

- Labor won with just over 2,000 FEWER First Preference votes than the Libs

- Labor won on a margin of less than 1% (ie. 0.41% or 766 TPP votes - so far - as postal votes still being counted). Labor won E-M in 2019 by a slightly larger margin, of 0.85% TPP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Eden-Monaro_by-election#Two-party-preferred_history_since_1996.

- The Lib candidate speaks/presents well. She needed more media airtime to display that during the campaign.

All seems a case, in E-M, of Labor going more to the centre-right (virtually no left-union concerns in E-M, as only significant union activity seems to the nurses) and ScoMo government going to a COVID stimulus centre-left major policy (which may have picked up some young JobKeeper and JobSeeker votes).

So could be said Albo is popular, but only just and by a decreased projected majority. Shorten may snatch leadership back in time for 2022 Election of may wait for Albo to lose 2022 Election then Shorten takes the helm again as Labor leader.

Pete

ISRAELI FOREIGN POLICY for us dummies:

1. All agree with David to support paper signed in 1917 to justify anything, REALLY?!
________________________________

2. Israeli invasion of West Bank soon would be ideal Israeli caused International Crisis

to boost ELECTION prospects of Israel's best friend and ally, TRUMP, by November 3, 2020.

The author is deluded again because nobody is presently proposing to provide sovereignty to the Jewish people. What is actually proposed by Netanyahu/Trump, is to annex more lands to THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

Get the difference?

The state of Israel is NOT the Jewish people.
The state of Israel does not even represent the Jewish people, certainly not their majority. In particular, the state of Israel represents neither observant Orthodox Jews (who still patiently await the Messiah), nor Reform Jews (living mostly in America) who are disgusted by the belligerence and inhumane insensitivity of the Israeli government, but have no vote to avert it.
Further, a QUARTER of Israel's citizens are not even Jewish!
Further, many of those currently named "Palestinians" are in fact descendants of the original Jewish People of the biblical heartland. Also many of those currently considered Jewish, are not descendants of the same.

Now speaking of the "biblical heartland", we must note that while the bible spans over 3000 years, it was only for about 100 years out of that period (mostly during King David's and Solomon's reign) that Jews had sovereignty over the whole of the land of Israel.

Never mind, I have no objection for Jews, if so they wish, to (re?)claim sovereignty over parts of that biblical heartland that do not belong to the state of Israel. BUT, if they do so, then they need to do it THEMSELVES, in person, they must take over such lands, build them, cultivate them and most importantly, defend them, using THEIR OWN blood, sweat and tears. They have no right to ask Israel to do so on their behalf, they have no right to spill Israeli blood on their quest, they have no right to shame Israel internationally and corrupt it from within. Are you willing for such a deal and challenge, David Singer, or are you only a parasite hooking onto the state of Israel and sucking its blood?

This agreement likely just signs into law and makes legal the very treatment you've inflicted upon the Palestinians illegally for the last 70+ years.

'reclaiming' - Is that what you call it?

It’s kind of funny - Daffy turned out not to be a misnomer. So man created god (with which I concur) but the “all pervasive divine consciousness light” is the “reality”. LOL sounds like some pot haze religious belief to me. Sure ain’t fact oh - and in the Truth as revealed to Daff, this REAL reality doesn’t in its non-god godly strictures provide nations homelands. I guess people making up nations can blissfully subsist floating about on the divine consciousness light.. hmm .. will definitely not feed the cows.

Bernie Bernie Bernie. And Europeans should cede their lands to the Neanderthals. Oh, but there are no Neanderthals today. No peoples. No nation of peoples who despite being forcibly mass-expelled by the Romans, retained and maintained an unbroken spiritual ownership of their never-ceded indigenous land of development; its cities; especially the ancient seat of government Jerusalem.
Mentioned 600 something times in the Torah. Not once in the koran of Mohamed and his invading military armies 7th century muslim conquest ruthlessly occupying 98.5% of the Middle East to this very day, with its forced conversions and spiritual physical coercion, dictatorships, tyrannies, and mass execution pits.
And by guile or wile JEWS returned after their near genocide to tend and heal centuries of squatter neglect to rejuvenate their land, rid malarial infested swamps and turn deserts into gardens. AS REAL OWNERS WOULD DO. And would never have let happen on the first place. Two thousand years of typical squatter neglect in absence of the owners. It’s a bit late to claim some intention.
Who in their right mind would risk their future and that of their descendants to establish a tiny near undefendable nation surrounded by a sea of over 700 million hostile religious zombie mobs who want them dead? Unless perhaps they were actually returning to THEIR own land.
The Jews have avoided being massacred à la ISIS à la Mohamed 3 times in 3 wars and have absorbed 600,000 from Arab countries that confiscated their personal titles property. Enough is enough. Palestinians need to be fairly compensated so they can relocate in Palestinian Jordan or anywhere in the Middle East with dignity and get on with their lives. The poisoning of both sides must end.

For your enlightenment,
The UNHRC Charter of Indigenous Peoples Rights

Part II. Land

Article 13
1. governments shall respect the special importance for the cultures and spiritual values of the peoples concerned of their relationship with the lands or territories, or both as applicable, which they occupy or otherwise use, and in particular the collective aspects of this relationship.

2. term "lands" in Articles 15 and 16 shall include the concept of territories, which covers the total environment of the areas which the peoples concerned occupy or otherwise use.

Article 14
1. The rights of ownership and possession of the peoples concerned over the lands which they traditionally occupy shall be recognised. In addition, measures shall be taken in appropriate cases to safeguard the right of the peoples concerned to use lands not exclusively occupied by them,..
Article 15
1. The rights of the peoples concerned to the natural resources pertaining to their lands shall be specially safeguarded. ..

3. Whenever possible, these peoples shall have the right to return to their traditional lands, as soon as the grounds for relocation cease to exist.

5. Persons thus relocated shall be fully compensated for any resulting loss or injury.

Article 17

1. Procedures established by the peoples concerned for the transmission of land rights among members of these peoples shall be respected.

2. The peoples concerned shall be consulted whenever consideration is being given to their capacity to alienate their lands or otherwise transmit their rights outside their own community.

3. Persons not belonging to these peoples shall be prevented from taking advantage of their customs or of lack of understanding of the laws on the part of their members to secure the ownership, possession or use of land belonging to them.

Well said paddo_ron!

( at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=21002&page=0#370710 )

Well argued.

Regards

Pete

The pursuit of dreams to the exclusion of the rights of other peoples has led to incalculable suffering over human history and can have no standing in international law.

Michael T.

"Dream"? Land ownership shifts all the time over the centuries.

Certainly the Christian White Dream for free land in Australia, the US, Argentina, Brazil, Russia and Canada was achieved through taking over the land of indigenous people.

Also Protestant English took over Catholic Irish land. Slavs took over German land in what is now Poland and Czechoslovakia.

So why can't Jewish people have the right to take over land?

Or do you go by the German-Russian Middle Ages racial-religious prejudice that Jewish people should always be banned from owning land?!

Pete

Dear Plantagenet,

Is anyone denying the right of Jews to own land?

Not that I am aware of, that was never the question at hand, which is, whether Israel should annex certain areas in the West Bank.

Israel is not "the Jewish people" - these are two quite distinct entities, and by-the-way, the majority of the Jewish people oppose that annexation.

BTW, I do not oppose the idea that some Jews may come and take over such lands and raise their own flag there if so they wish, so long as the state and people of Israel are not involved. Muslims already have 20+ states, so why can't Jews have two?

The State of Israel is the main, legal and most effective representative of the Jewish people in the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People

Dear Plantagenet,

Following some successful pork-barrelling, this controversial "basic law" to which you refer, was passed by the "impressive" majority of 62:55... What a show of unity of the Jewish people...

The majority of Jews had no say because they are not Israeli citizens.
The Orthodox Jews of Israel accepted this law only as part of the pork-barrelling bargain, despite many of them not even recognising the state of Israel.
Then what about those ex-Jews that are now erroneously called "Palestinians", who were pressured to convert by the invading Muslims? Are they not also the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to whom the land of Israel was allegedly promised? Do they not still worship the same God? Are they not more eligible for the Jewish inheritance than the millions of Caucasian converts that joined Judaism much later (of whom most of the Israelis today, Netanyahu included, are descendants)?

I firmly believe that should there been a referendum, by secret ballot, of all Jews, asking: "Do you approve the state of Israel to represent the Jewish people?", the majority would answer "No", and further, that this would be the result regardless whether eligibility was determined along ethnic or religious lines.

Even then, how can a body "represent" people who never agreed to be represented by it, nor have a say in its running?

And we still have not touched on the fact that over a quarter of Israel's citizens are not at all Jewish, while so many more do not believe the Jewish scriptures nor practice the commandments within, which say:

"Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land the Lord your God gives you for all time." [Deuteronomy, 4:39-40]

Thanks Y

However unjust that Basic Law is for some, it was still passed by a legal majority in the Middle East's only democracy.

In most non-Israeli countries of the Middle East the Dictator or King wouldn't even recognise a legal parliamentary majority.

That is unless HE (there being no female rulers of Islamic countries - the last one, in Pakistan, was murdered in 2007 - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto#Assassination:_December_2007 ). Unless the Islamic or Royal HE rigged the parliamentaty vote by force.

So I'll amend the original statement to:

The State of Israel is the main, legal and most effective representative of the Jewish people in the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People

with the Basic Law in question passed by a legal "62 in favor, 55 against, and two abstentions"

Regards

Pete

#Loudmouth2

The Palestinian Arabs got the pathway to their State 98 years ago - in 1922 - when the Principal Allied Powers excluded the Jewish National Home provisions of the Mandate for Palestine from applying in 78% of the Mandate territory - Trans-Jordan - today called Jordan.

The Jews were dudded in 1922 into accepting just 22% - which included Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) - but reluctantly accepted this League of Nations carve up.

The Arabs did not.

98 years later - with millions of Jews and Arabs having been killed, maimed and traumatised - this two-state solution contemplated in 1922 still remains the solution to ending the conflict.

The 2020 solution requires Israel and Jordan - the two successor States to the Mandate for Palestine currently sovereign in 95% of former Palestine - to allocate sovereignty in the remaining 5% by directly negotiating a new international boundary between their two respective States in accordance with their 1994 Peace Agreement.

Any proposal calling for another Arab state to be created between Israel and Jordan has always been - and remains - a total waste of time.

I’ll be blunt. Yes JEWS were absent from their indigenous lands of development for 2000years. Yes of course surrounding Arabs moved in to fill the void. They’d be crazy not too. Yes populations shift, evolve, replace. In any case JEWS flooded back at their weakest. Done. Arabs had three chances and blew it. Permanently. Jews secured their foothold and maintain their security with uncompromising terrible impositions. But untenable and poisonous to all. Sadly necessary. Would Palestinians prefer the Muslim tyrant reality of mass grave pits? Lucky their enemies aren’t brethren arabs. 70 years ISRAEL outdoes its neighbours in every measure. 1400 years of “true revelation” oppression and voilà - 22 unstable, dysfunctional corrupt backward outdoor Mediaeval museum-display-nations swallowing 98.5% of the Middle East - all underpinned by sharia brutality & 66%illiteracy. As if the planet needs a 23rd. 22 are more than enough.

Dear Plantagenet,

«The State of Israel is the main, legal and most effective representative of the Jewish people in the Middle East.»

Still, a significant proportion of the Jews which it claims to represent, forming a significant minority in the Middle East and the majority of Jews overall, do not wish to be represented by the State of Israel.

While the State of Israel is the legitimate representative of its citizens (including non-Jews), there is currently no legitimate representative of the Jews as such.

---

Dear Paddo_on,

«JEWS were absent from their indigenous lands of development for 2000years»

False. Jews were continuously present in Israel, nor were they exiled by the Romans (as the common myth goes - they were only exiled for a while from the city of Jerusalem). Jews were in the majority until the 4th century and mid that "2000 years" period, Jews fought alongside Muslims to defend themselves and Jerusalem from the crusaders. Their numbers dwindled gradually down to the 16th century when only ~2000 were left, then grew again, but one Jewish family remained the whole time in the village of Peki'in.

In any case, a large proportion of the "Arabs" who are now erroneously called "Palestinians", are descendants of the original Jewish population. While they were regrettably forced to convert into Islam around the 9th century, they never left their indigenous land.

But should you claim that it is religion rather than ethnicity which defines who is a Jew, then the majority of "Jews" in Israel (including PM Netanyahu) are secular and do not follow the commandments of their religion. According to the bible, their ownership of the land of Israel is conditional on their observance of the biblical commandments.

Yuyutsu, you missed my point by splitting yarmulkas and then created one from a wrong assumption.
My point was yes JEWS were there in some national form with numbers to sustain their development and ownership, and then they weren’t (isolated pockets continuously but no longer a nation, until 1947 when the nation of Jewish people was reestablished with an increasing ability to hold and protect it. Permanently. In between squatters understandably moved in. Now they have to go.
So: JEWS were there, then they weren’t. Squatters moved in. Their allies tried three times to massacre every pesky returned Jew and blew it. Dismally. All over rover. There comes a time after several attempts to wipe out your enemy who moved back into his long vacant now crumbling house you’d been enjoying (but not repairing), kicked you out but didn’t kill you (like your brothers and cousins would have) and you get walloped each time instead, that maybe you stop claiming your defeats are victories and you still deserve and demand the spoils. You admit defeat, get out and get on with life elsewhere. THAT has to happen now. Jews are back and they ain’t going nowhere again as a people.

40%of Jews are agnostic or atheist. 90% support a secular enlightened state. It’s only Quasi-taliban extremist crazies who try to coerce everyone into obeying their particular tyranny.

Dear Paddo_ron,

For any meaningful conversation, you need to define who are these JEWS, those whom you presume, were there, then weren't, then are there again.

Is Jewishness determined by race, or by religion?
And who is to judge - the Nazis? The Rabbis? The Torah? The United-Nations?

Unless you claim that "a Jew" is anyone who considers themselves as such, the current citizens of Israel have only a slight overlap with the original people who lived in Israel in biblical times. This doesn't make them illegitimate (as some here claim) - it just means that they cannot automatically inherit the privileges of former inhabitants.

Yuyutsu: ok cool. I can incorporate a shift in focus despite the fact of the irrelevance of any non-Jew’s opinion defining Jewishness. Even moreso then using that opinion as a springboard to determine land title validity by genetic co-efficient measure of Jewishness.
Jews are a people. As they have defined themselves as being born of a Jewish mother, born Jewish or converted in a manner accepted by the broader Jewish community. The brilliance of course being you ALWAYS know who the mother is. That’s why paternal claims have never defined Jewishness.
So whether these 2000 years generations of mothers had non Jewish liaisons each offspring is equally Jewish and accepted as such by the Jewish community. Yes Judaism was the religion embraced by the Hebrews and carried forward. But as most ethnically distinct nations and especially as Jews there’s no monolith. Some believe in god. Some don’t. They are equally Jewish. (And no a person is not Jewish by claiming so. The community defines itself.

As for claim to the land, it’s never been ceded, not treatied away. Emotional-spiritual ownership and love remained unbroken in every diaspora Jews heart for two thousand years. And the Jews who are there HAVE IT. Period. They have REclaimed and REoccupied those lands. THEIR lands. The proof is in the pudding. Try to take those lands away and you’ll be absolutely clear who owns them for real whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

Dear Paddo_ron,

Alright, you selected the Rabbinical definition.

According to this legendary view, the Jewish people were formed when they received the Torah at Mt. Sinai and since then maintained the same constitution, including its memberships conditions and the religious nature of conversion. Accordingly, it was then when the group entered a covenant with God, which also gives them the land of Israel, conditional on observing God's commandments.

Critical historical science tells us that this event at Mt. Sinai never occurred, also that the Jewish people were only formed towards the end of the 7th century B.C., never mind.

By this definition, most of today's Jews are matrilineal descendants of Caucasian converts from the kingdom of Khazaria, converted around the 8th century, while another significant group of Jews consists of the majority of "Palestinian" farmers (as opposed to nomad Bedouins), with an even longer Jewish matrilineal chain, who now happen to mostly follow Islam.

One problem with this approach is the conflict with an earlier biblical covenant:
"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" [Genesis 15:18].

- "Unto thy seed" includes most Arabs, "Palestinians" and Sepharadic Jews, but not the Caucasian converts. All this is written in the Torah, the very book which converts to Judaism are supposed to accept and revere.

So what then grants the land of Israel to the Jews?

1) God's promise? No. If you believe in this, then you face the above conflict, as well as the problem of non-observance.
2) Continuous longing? Not for the majority who converted long after, nor for the many who left Israel over the centuries for economic reasons.
3) Sheer force, just HAVING IT? Perhaps, but unacceptable by modern standards. This is no better than China. ALSO, the current owner of the land of Israel is the State of Israel, which is only 75% Jewish.

Israel belongs to the Israelis, not to the Jews... or perhaps you like to try a different definition?

#Yuyutsu

Israel is the National Home of the Jewish people authorized by the San Remo Resolution and Treaty of Sevres in 1920 and the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine in 1922. The right to reconstitute that National Home in the areas of former Palestine identified in the Mandate ( which include Judea and Samaria aka West Bank) has been preserved by article 80 of the UN Charter.

Living there is not a necessary prerequisite for Jews worldwide to support Israel's right to exist, thrive and prosper as the Jewish National Home among other nations of the world - and defend it from critics like you.

Strange that in all your lengthy diatribes you - like the PLO and Hamas - never mention these highly relevant and important international documents in your pursuit to denigrate and delegitimise the internationally recognised homeland of the Jewish people existing on a piece of land that fits into Tasmania three times.

Why?

Dear David,

Paper and ink are cheap - the Israelis have paid for their country with real stuff: money, sweat, blood and tears.

Unlike the PLO and Hamas, with which you strangely connect me, I have no objection for other Jews, if so they wish, to settle in Judea and Samaria and make it their homeland, but then of course they need to pay for it themselves.

One cannot speak of a homeland for "The Jewish People" unless it is agreed that such a group exists in reality, has some reasonable commonality, shared interests and good prospects for getting along well with each other. Yet this concept of "The Jewish People" can only make sense if one believes and unites around the very original document, not some man-made document by interested politicians and their cheap-talking ad-hoc organisations, but the very document that was allegedly dictated to Moses by God Himself. If you have faith in this document then I am happy to forward the discussion along its contents.

#Yuyutsu

Your interpretation of the "the very document that was allegedly dictated to Moses by God Himself" does not accord with the interpretation all 51 nations of the League of Nations unanimously adopted when recognizing the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country".

The 51 member countries of the League of Nations were: Albania,Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, British India, Bulgaria, Canada,Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Italy, Japan, Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Republic of China, Romania, Siam, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Union of South Africa, United Kingdom, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

Calling the League of Nations a "cheap-talking ad-hoc organisation" is the kind of dismissive unsubstantiated nonsense you like to engage in.

BTW - the USA is not included in the above list because it was not a member of the League of Nations.

However on 30 June 1922 a joint resolution of both Houses of Congress unanimously endorsed the Mandate for Palestine.

On 21 September 1922 President Harding signed the joint resolution of approval to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

I group you with the PLO and Hamas - because you - like they - are not prepared to accept the verdict of the international community that set aside 22% of Palestine for the Jews and 78% for the Arabs under the Mandate.

Such refusal has led to the Jewish-Arab conflict still remaining unresolved after 100 years.

Follow the Mandate's subdivision of Palestine and a solution can be readily found in a matter of months by Jordan and Israel - the two successor states to the Mandate and currently sovereign in 95% of the Mandate territory - redrawing the international border between their two respective States to incorporate the remaining 5%.

Dear David,

«I group you with the PLO and Hamas - because you - like they - are not prepared to accept the verdict of the international community»

Well, you could just as well find so many other commonalities - perhaps both myself and the PLO/Hamas leaders like eating cucumbers?

So yes, I do not care for this chatter of the "international community", I have no interest in listening to all this gossip that you throw at me, "this one said this, that one did not say that, these people signed this paper, those other people did not sign it": while they were chatting away in their ethereal realm, the Israelis dried the swamps and built their land on the real actual earth, and defended it too with their real blood, not with paper - and this is all that matters!

Aside from that, would you be prepared to accept any verdict of the international community, even if it was obnoxious and went against all your values and aspirations? If not, then you too are within our happy group, together with myself, the PLO and the Hamas...

«Such refusal has led to the Jewish-Arab conflict still remaining unresolved after 100 years.»

Nonsense. There is no Jewish-Arab conflict as such. That former conflict over the land between Israel and its surrounding Arab countries has died away and nearly ended. Israel's problem today is Iran and its satellite terrorist groups. Iran is not Arab - Iran is a common enemy that unites Israel and the Arab countries. Israel and the Arabs also have so many other common interests, so their relationships are constantly improving. http://www.timesofisrael.com/second-uae-plane-carrying-virus-aid-for-palestinians-lands-in-israel/

«redrawing the international border between their two respective States to incorporate the remaining 5%.»

That "remaining 5%" is poisonous: whoever owns it only suffers and I do not wish such suffering on anyone, let alone Jordan or Israel. But well, if you indeed represent this amorphous group which you call "The Jews", then why not? I will not stand in your way if you and your masochist friends wish to come and possess that "remaining 5%" yourselves!

yuyutsu:it finally oozes out-a Khazar convert conspiracy theorist behind a guise of academe.Archaeology& DNA debunked it but who cares-except obsessed jew despisers?Even if true KHANVERSOS were just as dead and mass-murdered by Hitler as any'REAL'Jew,and they fight today &die defending Israel(notwithstanding medieval loonies awaiting the messiah).
**I hereby proclaim them tribemembers.**
So a Kingdom of settled people,their own lands, language, history, way of life and customs would uproot themselves. The whole kit-and-tens-of-thousands-caboodle would say HEY! What a great idea to abandon our farms,livestock, homes,possessions and graves of our forefathers(what to do with frail elderly -ice-bergs?)for an adventure!AND the men would've been busting to have their foreskins sliced off. Jews who NEVER proselytized and only rarely converted outsiders welcomed strangers into bedragglement!! Even more eeking out livings. Prohibited from owning land, universities, professions ..Hated, reviled, attacked raped,killed,forced to leave their homes on a moments pogrom or like REAL jews. What a great idea.
The pseudo-scholarly mechanism obsessed jew haters attempt using to discredit Israel on its 1.5% sliver of the middle east. Perfect magic words to swell an arab's heart -like human shield- lure them in Antis Jewish co-obsession with revisionist history ..faking photographs...Palestinians have become experts at it for gullible western media..
Face it - 66% illiteracy and something like 16% inbreeding, violent backward, religious zombie simpletons, whose clear knowledge of events one day is opposite the next without batting an eye -are unproblematic with barn-door sized lies (like the Democrats).

The idea that a few million Jews didn't expel (or as Arabs would have - killed) vanquished enemies and have made Israel into the region's only brain-lead success story while defending themselves with their own blood - despite being surrounded by nearly a billion seething enemies who want them dead - galls a lot of people.

Basket case, dysfunctional, impoverished, violent, female-apartheid-imposing, corrupt dictatorship oppression and occupation over 98.5% of the middle east is so attractive that some people want it to extend over that extra 1.5%. Desperately. But they will tell the world with a straight face how a Palestine would defy Arab gravity.

#Yuyutsu

Would that you only had a common connection of enjoying cucumbers with Hamas and PLO leaders. Regrettably your connection is far more sinister - denigrating and delegitimizing the Jewish people.

It was "Jews" - not "Israelis" that "dried the swamps and built their land on the real actual earth, and defended it too with their real blood" - between 1919 and 1948. The PLO and Hamas adopt your mantra - "Israelis are evil but we don't hate Jews". Absolute Jew-hating rubbish.

There were no "Palestinians" until 1964. There were "Palestinian Arabs" but they were not regarded as having any entitlement or claim to a special national status in 1920 - being included in the "existing non-Jewish communities" in Palestine as the Mandate made very clear. Their right to self determination was to be found in the remaining 99.99% of the captured Ottoman Empire - not in the remaining 0.01% called "Palestine"

You claim: "There is no Jewish-Arab conflict as such. That former conflict over the land between Israel and its surrounding Arab countries has died away and nearly ended"

Really? Why do only two Arab countries out of 21 recognise Israel? Why are they all up in arms threatening all kinds of action if Israel dares restore Jewish sovereignty in just 1697 km2 of territory in Judea and Samaria? Why have they all backed the PLO refusing to negotiate with Israel on the Trump Plan?

Israel - not "me and my masochistic friends" will make the decisions regarding the future of the Jewish people's biblical heartland -Judea and Samaria.

You and your PLO and Hamas mates should stop spreading your hatred by stuffing your mouths with cucumbers and allowing their poor Gazan and West Bank constituents to have their say in free and fair elections denied them since 2006.

A new democratically-elected leadership should grab Trump's offer to negotiate with Israel for the creation of a democratic Palestinian State in Gaza and 70% of the West Bank with open arms. They are never going to get a better offer.

Dear David,

I have no idea why you still connect me to those silly, so-called, "Palestinians": even if we share the love of cucumbers, I do not share their hate of Israel - I love Israel!
I have no ties with them, I don't even care what they want and whether they live or die. They just happen to be stuck in the West-Bank and Gaza, but are powerless and insignificant and even the lip-service which Arab countries used to give them (while trading with Israel behind their back) is now dwindling. While we disagree on the topic at hand, you seeing the occupation/annexation of the West-Bank as a Jewish matter while I view it as an internal Israeli problem, either way the connection with the so-called "Palestinians" is only anecdotal. I hope this settles this diversion from topic once and for all.

The issue at hand is who exactly are "The Jews" which you speak about, then on what grounds would they be "entitled" to this sad joke - a cursed piece of land that corrupts anyone who owns it.

According to both the ethnic and Rabbinical classifications, most "Palestinians" are Jews, so I assume that you prefer some other classification that excludes them.

The classification by religious observance could do, but from earlier posts of yours I gather that you reject it as well.

Then what classification remains for this hazy concept of "Jewish people"? Perhaps Hitler's mad classification, wholly based on sick and unscientific fantasies?

Having rejected all the above, your idea of "Jewish people" seems to be grounded in wishful-thinking, for what else unites exactly these people yet no others? Nothing prevents you from inventing your own arbitrary classification, but you would then find it hard to justify why that arbitrary group is entitled to anything.

[continued...]

[...continued]

Unlike your arbitrary group, there was a clearly-distinct group of people who, rather than just talking, actually settled the land, dried its swamps, built it and defended it - these were and still are, the Israelis.

So what if the majority of them considered themselves to be Jews? So do the majority of Australians consider themselves "Christian". Some of the Israeli settlers preferred to see themselves instead as "Hebrews", some even as "Canaanites". Some were religious observant while others were anti-religious socialists who boasted eating ham with cheese on Yom Kippur. What connected between them is the creation and defense of this new country, Israel!

Now you state:

«Israel - not "me and my masochistic friends" will make the decisions regarding the future of the Jewish people's biblical heartland -Judea and Samaria.»

Sadly possible.

If Israel remains in and annexes the West Bank, then it is a tragedy for Israel which I mourn. This is unfortunately not in my hands.

I could argue at length why this is NOT "the Jewish people's biblical heartland", but it would serve nothing: the fact is that you and your masochistic friends, rightly or wrongly, see this land as yours - and I actually welcome this:

Your group would be mistaken to believe that Israel would annex that land on your behalf - Israel might annex it for itself, for its own misconceived interests, which would be tragic for Israel and not give you anything. Instead I urge you: go and grab that land for yourself and establish your own Jewish state there. This way, it will truly belong to whoever you call "The Jewish People", you could do there as you wish AND save Israel from that curse.

I wish you luck!

#Your connection with the PLO and Hamas is clear:

"The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong." Article 20 PLO Charter

"When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands,Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad."
Article 15 Hamas Charter

You have expressed your contempt for the Mandate for Palestine as some "man-made document by interested politicians and their cheap-talking ad-hoc organisations"

You are entitled to similarly denigrate and delegitimize the Jewish People as the PLO and Hamas do and to deny there is any "Jewish People" that has any entitlement to its own State. Just be honest enough and admit it. You certainly have a lot of supporters with similar Jew-hating views.

Of course - hiding under the cloak of anonymity raises the suspicion you could even be a member of one of these organisations. That again is your choice and you have to live with it.

You have made your position very clear as I have mine.

"Israel 's forces destroyed a Palestinian coronavirus research facility at the entrance of the disputed West Bank town of al-Khalil (Hebron). Construction of the plant, built to curb the city's spread of the virus, began almost 3 months ago, news agency Anadolu reported. As the building was nearing completion it was ruined by Israeli bulldozers. Hebron experienced the worst outbreak of the deadly virus in the West Bank, which has struggled to deal with a second wave of COVID-19 infections over the past two weeks. This occurs one day after Israel's army destroyed a Palestinian security checkpoint put up to test for coronavirus at the gateway to the city of Jenin.

Palestinians were much devastated about this news. This happened for the second time and both times happened at very unexpected moments. Israelis keep on demolishing Coronavirus testing centers in Palestine. But the question for now is, will Palestine plan to strike back to Israel?"

Dear David,

So you stick with that off-topic distraction, trying to find anecdotal similarities between my views and those of Muslim terrorist organisations. Well, I PARTIALLY agree with the contents of the PLO clause that you produced and have nothing but contempt for the Hamas charter, but sure, if you try hard enough you would find something in common between anything and everything because even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day!

How would call someone who goes to the bank, asks the teller to draw $1,000,000, then when told, "Sorry Sir, you have only $10,000 in your account", throws a tantrum: "You hate me, You hate me, You hate me!"?

- That much for your claim of my "Jew-hating".

The PLO and Hamas claim that the land of Israel is theirs.
Do I need to spell out that I completely disagree with that nonsense?
The larger part of the land belongs to the state of Israel.
Left behind are the cursed lands of Judea and Samaria:
Instead of dropping these crocodile-tears, claiming that everyone hates you, go grab them, in the name of your people, make them yours
(and oh, please take Eastern Jerusalem with you as well - good riddance for Israel)!

But this is not what you want: instead of pulling up your sleeves, you rather sit comfortably in Melbourne or wherever across the oceans and make the citizens of Israel do the dirty work for you and your friends. Perhaps after all you are not that masochistic, only parasitic!

---

Dear SteeleRedux,

Anadolu Agency is a state-run news agency headquartered in Ankara, Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadolu_Agency

Is Erdogan your super-star, or can you find a more credible source for your claims?

Dear SteeleRedux,

Further, the Anadolu agency claims that their information comes from the Palestinian news-agency, "Wafa".

Checking the WAFA website, there are many unflattering articles about the Israeli occupation and treatment, but no mention of any demolition of COVID-19 facilities. Surely if something of the kind had happened, then they would be the first to report it. Check for yourself:

http://english.wafa.ps/Regions/Details/2

#Yuyutsu

Finally you have had the intellectual honesty to admit:
" Well, I PARTIALLY agree with the contents of the PLO clause that you produced"

What part do you agree with and what part don't you agree with?

Why do you have "nothing but contempt" for article 15 of the Hamas Charter?

Dear David,

How tedious, you like wasting my time... Just because some idiots which I don't even know wrote something, why should the onus be on me to prove that I have no connection with them?

«The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them,»

Nothing has been based upon them!

«are deemed null and void.»

Thus nothing has been voided.

«Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine»

SOME Jews have historical and/or religious ties with the land of Israel (but not with this stupid, non-existing "Palestine").

«are incompatible with the facts of history»

SOME claims are incompatible.
If one's ancestral origins are from other regions, then how can they claim a historical connection?
If someone is not religious/observant, then how can they claim a religious connection?

«and the true conception of what constitutes statehood.»

Incompatible with violence? Is that what these PLO idiots complain about?

«Judaism, being a religion,»

Judaism is in the eye of the beholder. There's no standard agreed definition.

«is not an independent nationality.»

Well nothing is "an independent nationality" anyway.

«Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own»

Well I'm forced to agree, only because there is no such rubbish as "nation".

«they are citizens of the states to which they belong.»

People are being counted as "citizens" whether they like it or not, but this doesn't say anything about them. Nobody "belongs" to a state. To accuse Jews for being citizens is akin to the practice of accusing women for being raped.

«Why do you have "nothing but contempt" for article 15 of the Hamas Charter?»

It's violent terrorist crap.

I've done so this once, but I will not continue to waste my time analysing in detail each stupid and irrelevant text that you throw at me.

#Yuyutsu

You state:
"«The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them,»

Nothing has been based upon them!

«are deemed null and void.»

Thus nothing has been voided."

Unadulterated rubbish - as usual

Government of Palestine (which included Transjordan) was undertaken by Britain from 1922 to 1948 under authority of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. Article 6 of the Mandate has remained operative since 1948 until 2020 because of article 80 of the UN Charter.

The Jewish-Arab conflict will remain unresolved whilst the PLO and its Arab supporters fail to recognise the legality of the Mandate for Palestine and what subsequently followed over the next 100 years.

You further state:
"«Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own»

Well I'm forced to agree, only because there is no such rubbish as "nation".

You and the PLO are locked in together in this overt expression of Jew-hatred that is at complete odds with what all 51 members of the League of Nations unanimously agreed.

A person is known by the company he keeps.

Dear David,

«A person is known by the company he keeps.»

I do not keep company with any "Palestinians" and their institutions, nor with the United-Nations and/or their predecessors.

But yes, I did keep the company of a lawyer for longer than I needed, so I will try to avoid this in future.

#Yuyutsu

Your last comment is the first sensible comment you have made during your bizarre rant.

"On Sunday morning, 3 May 2020, at around 6:45 A.M., three Palestinians from the village of Dhinnaba in Tulkarm District arrived at an agricultural gate in the barrier west of the village of Far’on. The three, W.H, 55, and his two adult sons, have agricultural permits to enter their land, which lies west of the barrier. Soldiers were supposed to open the gate at 7:00 A.M., but none arrived. At 7:30, the three men gave up and decided, along with other Palestinians waiting there, to try and cross the barrier through a nearby opening. As soon as they did so, soldiers lying in ambush opened live fire at them with no prior warning. They shot one of the sons,.’I.H, 31, in the right leg. An Israeli ambulance took him to the nearby al-Kafriyat checkpoint, and from there a Red Crescent ambulance drove him to Thabet Thabet Hospital in Tulkarm. The soldiers did not allow his father and brother to go with him and ordered them to leave."
B'TSELEM

Dear SteeleRedux,

This is a very sad story.

What are your trying to tell us by that?
Do you just want to depress us?
As if we do not have enough troubles of our own here in Australia,
like these disgusting, ugly three thieving girls that brought COVID-19 back to Queensland.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Because it does concern us.

"Australia is only one of the two countries, the other being Marshall Islands opposing UN resolutions condemning Israeli annexations plans for parts of the West Bank. Australia this week voted against UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) five resolutions for Palestinian self determination, against Israeli settlements and settlers violence and on Israeli human-rights abuses in the Palestinian Territories"
http://www.amust.com.au/2020/06/australia-urged-to-end-its-anti-palestine-stance/