A bit simplistic, Mr Goodenough.

The fact that Sharon demanded no quid pro quo is an unusual act in today's global political sphere. More often, we find that concessions are only given against assurances or concessions from the other party. Here we have a situation where one side of a dispute has taken unilateral action to establish some basis of goodwill, in an environment that has a history of nothing but antagonism. Will it work? Anybody's guess. But he gets high marks for trying, in my book. Don't ignore the fact also that he has a majority of Israel consistently supporting him in this action, according to the polls.

Whatever happens next is really down to the Palestinian Authority, the PLO and Hamas. What Sharon has given the PA is an opportunity to show that they can exert some control over their people - Gaza is a small concession in this context, and if they fail, voter resistance to any further appeasement will harden.

It is of course fashionable to be highly pessimistic on this point, and it is of course often true that the reward for appeasement to terrorists is more terrorism. However, as with Northern Ireland, there comes a point where political posturing has to give way to the underlying will of the people to live in some form of peace, and I think that acts of this nature show the right attitude.

Pericles, nice post. The previous cycle of retaliation was never going to be stopped by yet another hit back. Refusing to play the terrorists game anymore is not capitulation.

Patrick is probably correct in his statement that the hardliners want the lot. I'm hoping that the withdrawal from Gaza gives the moderates some room to move.

The tough step will be after the next extremist attrocity when Israel has to decide if they keep working for peace or get back to the old cycle. Returning to the old cycle is the true capitulation to terrorists.

R0bert

With American aid money it is the Israeli's who have become the terrorists with regard to the Palestinians.
More land is being taken from the Palestinians as I write. There can be no peace when a land is occupied by such a cruel ideology of people. Or did you forget that Patrick, it is occupied Palestinian land after all, against international law. I've had a gutfull of the crying and wailing from the Jews of Gaza, those who lived like kings, took all the good farmland, most of the water, and left over a million people destitute. Goes around comes around aye?

I'm pretty sure if the UN had handed over my countries land to a religious sect of people, based only upon their religious book, I would be up in arms, as would all Australian citizens who had homes and land that was rightfully theirs taken from them,
I suggest you do some reading on the history of Zionism, perhaps even visit some Jewish sites that are a lot more balanced than the right wing garbage you have spewed forth.
Whatever will Israel do when the aid from America dries up as her failing ecomomy brings down the superpower? Maybe Israel will be forced to act like a democracy and view all humam beings as worthy of equal treatment!

The Israelis have long memories, and some of those memories are most instructive.

Does anyone wonder where Jesus found material for his “If your enemy persecutes you, give him bread” ?

II kings 6

Here it is... The Arameans were invading Israel, and Elisha was the prophet of the day..... The Arameans had been captured....

22 "Do not kill them," Elisha said "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." 23 So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory.

So... kindness to one’s enemies resulted in a cessation of violence and attack.... but read on.
Such is the human heart.....

24 Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of ARAM mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. 25

Well, does anyone not on heavy duty vallium really believe that the Palestinians will be any different ? Of course they will, they will just sit in their newly returned land and enjoy the sun.

Thats why Mahmoud Abbass said in a recent televised speech “Today Gaza.. tomorrow JERUSALEM”......

So, what happened to the Israelites when the King of Aram came back for another go ?

25 There was a great famine in the city; the siege lasted so long that a donkey's head sold for eighty shekels [a] of silver, and a quarter of a cab [b] of seed pods [c] for five shekels. [d]
(verrrry expensive)

What happened next ?

1 Elisha said, "Hear the word of the LORD. This is what the LORD says: About this time tomorrow, a seah [a] of flour will sell for a shekel [b] and two seahs [c] of barley for a shekel at the gate of Samaria." (i.e.. cheap as chips)

Read the whole exciting story in II kings 6 :)

As I said.. Israelites have long memories

Assuming all that is true David. That's the problem with the whole 'chosen people' mentality - is that it cannot be verified. And holding onto a grudge for well over 2000 years can hardly be healthy.

As for Patrick Goodenough's article - it would be much more constructive for the world to take Israel's example in this instance. Concessions and compromises have been instigated by both sides. One should not underestimate the value, the symbolism (particularly to the Palestinian people themselves) of Hamas' truce in the period leading up to the Gaza withdrawal. Sure there were flashpoints on both sides - but generally the two dire foes of the region, Hamas and the IDF, held back on mass bloodshed, in the vein of what we've seen in the last few years, in the hopes that a break through between Abu Mazen and Sharon could be achieved. Stepping stones, the first of which - dialogue (the first of many stones), that wonderful establishment of communication, the forebearer of understanding, the enlightener in an otherwise, dim and despairing realm. How can you solve a crisis without dialogue? You can't. And if the Americans and the British and the Australians were wise, they would seek what Israel has sought, a counterpart to deal with, and begin the resolving of issues that have only festered at the end of a gun's nozzle.

And finally, Patrick and his ilk, on both sides of the conflict, have every right to feel uncertain, fearful, defensive etc. It is human nature after all to fear what we don't know or understand. And in this case, in this region, the unknown is Hope.

What an absolute load of rubbish, Janine. The Jews “took all the good farmland, most of the water, and left over a million people destitute”

In a manner that can only be described as ignorant, you fail to mention that it was the result of Jewish efforts to build a community- not a state- in their homeland before WWII that made this ‘good farmland’- much of which was given to the Palestinians as part of the original partition plan. And how can you possible place the blame for the destitution of the Palestinian Arabs on the Jews (you don’t even bother to be polite and say Zionists)?

Arab instituted wars and Arafat deserve the credit for the crappy state of the Palestinian Arabs today, not the “Jews”.

The UN wouldn’t need to give the Jewish people a state had it not been for the refusal of the Arabs to live in peace with any so-called infidels.

And perhaps you are forgetting East Jerusalem was offered as the capital for a future Palestinian state in 2000- the importance of former PM Barak’s offer has gone unnoticed.

What have the Palestinians ever offered the Jews of Israel, apart from the their children strapped with explosives?

Try reading something that hasn’t been written by Chomsky or Said.

You are right about something, though- what goes around comes around… I’m sure we’ll see what the future holds for Palestinian murderers and anti-Semites.

The problem is that even with the gift of Gaza back to the Arabs, the Israelies will still have those 200 nuclear rockets ready to fire, under American orders.

So it would be a better gesture for peace in the Middle East with Israel's atomic capacity undone? The only reason that Iran would go nuclear is to match the Israeli's in fire-power. Iran has no designs on other people's lands apart from Israeli rockets. We do not need to use our brains very much to realise that tiny Israel's capacity for destruction must make Iran feel like the proverbial tiger cat in a corner, always ready to fight back, even to die for it.

The sad truth of the matter is, that while the US still has designs on the Middle East mainly for oil and strategem, the Israeli rockets will stay, the gift of Gaza back to the Arabs, only s flea-bite compared to what really should be done to preserve permanent peace in the area.

George C - Bushbred - WA

Brushy.. with allll due respect... READ HISTORY ... do a search on 'Persians'....
for crying out loud... we have had less time of peace since the last war than endured between some campaigns in those days.. as 'if' humanity has changed........ its still going on, we in the enlightened, reformed, Judao Christian West don't really have any doctrinal foundation for taking other peoples lands except plain 'greed'.... Iran has a president who spoke openly about 'exporting' the which revolution to the world ?.. yep..that one the..."ISLAMIC".....

If they want bombs it's for no other reason than they are Islamic and Persian.. on both counts they would wish for 'the old days' of empire...unless suddenly they stopped being human.

Work with us Brushy.. to inculcate true values into our youth.. how about a good place to begin is with 'And kids, you address adults as 'Mr or Mrs or Miss or Ms' Losing those things was part of the death of our culture.. well I for one wish to recapture that and its nothing to do with 'the 50s'

In an attempt to reassure the Israeli right, the prime minister told the Jerusalem Post that he will continue expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which are home to about 400,000 people. "There will be building in the settlement blocks," he said. "Each government since 1967, right, left and national unity, has seen strategic importance in specific areas [in the occupied territories] I will build."
The newspaper said Mr Sharon specifically mentioned further construction in Ma'ale Adumim settlement, designed to link it to Jerusalem despite Washington's objections. He said that Ariel settlement, in the heart of the West Bank, would be annexed as "a part of Israel for ever". The prime minister also said there would be no further unilateral withdrawals. "The Guardian 24-08-05"

You see wrighta, thats what this has all been about - a smokescreen to steal more illegal, but more "valuable" land.
Sharon chose the moment of the withdrawal from Gaza, to send the army
to bisect West Bank South from the North, around 67 kilometres, taking away further Palestinian grazing land and 100's of wells, locking the town of Azzarrya into a narrow enclave.
Gaza itself will be little more than a large enclosed prison, upon which Israel will rule land, sea and air.
This all occurs because America allows it too, Israel is her nuke armed deputy in the Middle Ease and she is prepared to turn a blind eye in return.
These days it is up to the individual to present themselves with the facts. Reading Israels own newspapers is a start, sort of balances out our main stream news of everything we are not told here.

The West Bank settlers were polled several years ago and a substantial majority said they would agree to leave in exchange for peace with the Palestinians. Even without a peace deal though Barak offered the Palestinians 94 % of the West Bank, and would give them further Israeli land to make up for the shortfall. Under Arafat they turned this down.
Yes- Under Sharon, they probably wont get another choice.

But instead of blaming the “Jews” and the evil imperialist yanks, maybe you should look at the Palestinians? Look at their media, their leaders, their religion (oh no, politically incorrect), their education system and maybe even look at one of the 57 Islamic states instead of the only Jewish one, if only for a change.

And of course the Israeli’s will be watching Gaza- when suicide bombers flood out from this area and kill more children and old people, we’ll all be watching- no doubt you’ll be saying it’s the result of zionism, occupation, globalisation, or some convenient excuse…

I'd agree with Mr.Goodenough that HAMAS and other plainly terrorist groups are going to kill Israeli citizens even with this pullout, but I will not and cannot support Israel unless they move out of the West bank and Gaza. I have nothing against Judaism. But I am not a jew, and I don't believe in their claims that God gave them the land. The invasion of palestinian land through settlements is also evil, and until Israel admits this, they are very hypocritical.

The logic that the people of Israel use could be used to imply that all White people should leave the country and we should hand the land back to the Aboriginal people, because it is their land. But that is not going to happen. What white people did to the aboriginies was wrong, and when Israel invaded in the 1940's that was very wrong as well, and you can't pretend it wasn't. Israel, like the modern Australian government, has a right to exist, but it does not have a right to invade the area the palestinian people live in. And until God himself rides down on a magical cloud and shows me a signed contract promising the land to the Israeli's, I don't buy their argument and I don't support the settlements.

When Israel returns to the 1967 borders, then they have my full support. Not now though.

Oh, and one more thing. People always complain that Muslims try to force their religion down the throat of others. This is exactly what Israel is doing with its invasion of Palestine. After what they did (what was proven they did) in the 1940's, they cannot claim they are "morally superior" to the Muslims or to the Arabs.

But yes, Israel has a right to exist, and its citizens have a right to be free of attacks, but Palestinians are people too, and they have a right to be allowed to live on their land.

Patrick's view is, I fear, a wee bit one-eyed. That said, I confess to much ambivalence about Sharon's evacuation of Gaza and four (4) - of many - West Bank settlements.

On the one hand I cannot forget Sharon's involvement in facilitating the slaughter in the Lebanese camps during the Israeli invasion in the early eighties. To my mind this makes him liable to prosecution for complicity in crimes against humanity.

On the other, as they say, only Nixon could go to China. Maybe only Sharon, with his own extreme right credentials, can carry enough of the Israeli far right loonies with him - despite many of them deserting him over Gaza - to actually make a workable peace with the Palestinians. The last Israeli PM who thought he had done this was of course murdered by a far right loony.

I harbor grave doubts about Sharon's bona fides, but am willing to wait and see whether he is actually dinkum. The alternative seems to be just more of the same and now, maybe, everyone's had enough of that to contemplate genuine compromise on the toughies - Jerusalem, refugee returns, settlers - that have derailed all previous attempts.

Mhoram

If the middle east is ever to be stabilised, and retain some semblance of order then the past needs to be forgiven (not forgotten). Sharon hopefully has recognised this, although the elimination of Islamic Jihad leaders over night does not help!

Having said this the Arabs/Palestinians aren't the only people who need to ask for forgiveness. For all the talk of terrorism in the Middle East lets not forget that the first terrorist groups were in fact Jewish, and led by a former Israeli prime minister (The Stern Gang/ Menachem Begin). Arab terrorism was largely a reaction to such movements, and the signing of the Balfour Declaration.

Of course Israelis suffer unimaginable torment on a daily basis, and live in constant fear. However is this any different to the plight of the Palestinians? The only difference I see is that the extremists on one side have a superb military to do their fighting (ultra orthodox jews aren't obliged to participate in national service), while those on the other side choose to blow themselves up to prove their religious credentials.

Meanwhile the moderates on both sides wonder how they have been caught up in all this religious nonsense! Come to think of it I'm betting that most Israelis are beginning to wish the UN had given them a slice of Africa (say Uganda) as their 'homeland'. After Idi Amin I'm guessing alot of Ugandans could be wishing the same thing!

I think many people miss the strategic significance of the withdrawal. The current security focus of Israel is their security fence. Gaza does not help at all in implementing a tightly secured perimeter. It is far to small and isolated.

Sharon can afford to withdraw from Gaza because it makes the Israeli position more defensible, with the additional benefits of being seen as working towards peace.

Ultimately though, the western media and academia will generally ignore any jewish compliance with road maps and continue to deride israel as the cause of the problem, even though palestinians have failed to live up to their side of the bargain EVERY time.

The Gaza settlers will be relocated to new houses in Israel? New plods of land to restart their lives? No doubt there will be some form of compensation for their pain and loss?

Palestinians have their farms bulldozed, the crops ripped out of their grounds, families thrown out to allow for their livelihood's destruction. Do they get compensated, relocated? No, that's right, they're the family members of suicide bombers, Hamas activists, no they deserve this retribution. After all, eye-for-an-eye.

But then, those family members seek out relatives, looking for a roof and a meal. Those relatives hear the story of how the big, bad Israeli in his shiny yellow bulldozer came across the border to tear down their homes. Then those relatives talk to their neighbours, who then spread the tragedy through their cafes, restaruants - low and behold, a cleric hears of it (Assuming the Palestinians don't have televisions). He sprouts out his calls for revenge, 'Time to blow up one of their theatres!' Eye for an eye. Isn't that a fundamental of Judaism. I've no idea.

Flip the coin, theatre goers get blown up, here we go with the families seeking comfort with relatives, who tell neighbours, so on and so forth until Sharon pops up with targeted assassinations in mind.

Is there not another way? It seems to me that Jews are beset with the idea of revenge, to dish what they copped during centuries of persecution. Palestinians seek revenge for the utterly deplorable situation their society finds itself in, rightly or wrongly citing Israel as the cause of that misery. And we assume people would prefer to fight rather talk. That they would prefer martyrdom rather dialogue, land rather than peace. So Sharon has withdrawn - why isn't this a positive? HAMAS have restrained their actions against Israel, but more importantly, against the PA, to allow for Abu Mazen's new rule to take hold - why isn't this a positive? Why are we so certain the blood will flow after this epic week in Gaza. Precedent? So set new ones. Sharon and the PA have started.

Nick I- Jews are not “beset with the idea of revenge”, as you say. You appear to be drawing most of your comments from a mistaken view of Judaism. Had you done this with something related to Islam, no doubt you would have been heavily criticised, but apparently no one has noticed your misinterpretation here.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/torah.htm

Wrighta (R u Jewish ?)

While I'm not a Jew myself, I have a very strong appreciation for the development of the covenenant beginning with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and for the most part, secular observers will not have any inkling of how the family lines of Ishmael and Isaac pretty much determined the polarization of today.

Hence they dismiss any Israelite claim to the Land as 'God Given'.

Hoping they will get it is a no win situation until blind eyes are opened by Grace.

I find it fascinating that there is a fairly strong movement in Israel for restoration of the Temple...
as the saying goes "That will be the day" (of rejoicing world wide)
But as I guess you also percieve it will most likely be the prelude to Messiah coming (for us the 2nd time, and for Jews the first).

A bit simplistic, perhaps a bit hysterical as well?

Yes, Israel is quitting Gaza. They were hardly going to be there forever. Israel’s habit of capturing and settling territory which does not belong to them has created a festering sore in the Middle East. It must eventually be resolved, and this will undoubtedly involve ceding more territory to Arabs.

However, the vision of a greater Israel remains. I see Sharon’s endgame as being a unilateral two-state settlement in which Israel gifts the Palestinians the land it is willing to sacrifice, and the Palestinians must finally tackle their own problems without the old excuses.

Appeals to western guilt complexes regarding the holocaust may play to some in the US and Australia, but are increasingly wearing thin in Europe, and are utterly irrelevant on the bloodied ground of Palestine.

Likewise, pontifications about terrorism don’t erase the political problem which Israel has created for itself. Ultimately, the Jewish state must resolve these issues if it wishes to move forward.

The Gaza withdrawal is a small step, but at least it is in the right direction.

Can I recommend the following webpage as a voice of sanity and reason in this debate.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14624

Its a review of a work by Amos Elon- author of "The Pity of It All: German Jews Before Hitler"

I think it shows that this is a complex issue and that a statesman who can break the mould (whilst not getting assasinated)is what is needed for that part of the world.

Im not yet sure that Mr Sharon is that man.

For those who believe the Palestinians will view the Gaza withdrawal as a 'contribution to peace' and a 'reason to cease atrocities' ....

did you all note the suicide bombing yesterday ?

I maintain, and affirm, that no amount of Israeli withdrawal from 'legitimately conquered lands' (i.e. reclaiming from an ATTACKING force) will satisfy the hard core of the Palestinian group.

The root core of their motivation is as much (if not more) 'Islamic'/religious as it is territorital.

Anyone who thinks the status of Jerusalem and the Temple mount are NOT at the absolute core of this, are bewilderingly ignorant, and untutored in things Judaistic/Islamic.
Even the fact that most Israeli's are secular has no bearing on this state of affairs.

The idea that the Orthodox Jews would EVER (perhaps when hell freezes over) allow Jerusalem and the site of the Holy of Holy's to be in Muslim hands, is beyond comprehension. Such people should start from Genesis, and read through to the end of the old testament, you might gain some appreciation of the issue.

Day of 'infamy'? More along the lines of a day of 'atonement' in my opinion. We are talking several decades of illegal occupation under international law, as Israel has for many years been one of the few countries insisting that it is entitled to acquire land by means of invasion.

Also rather than assuming all terrorists are inherently evil or illogical one must stop and think about what drives this action. People turn to terrorism when they see that there are no legitimate political avenues for them to express dissatisfaction with the state, when they see the state itself as unjust and unreasonable. Any state that bypasses rule of law with 'targeted killings', elects a war criminal as its president and then refuses to acknowledge an illegal occupation of land is clearly contorting itself into a breeding ground for terrorism. The withdrawal is a momentous step - every concession and adherence to rule of law sends the signals that legitimate channels can guarantee the palestinians safety and certainty and so reduces the chances that the next generations will become 'radicalized.' Every attempt to crush with an iron fist disillusions the next generation and sows the seeds of terrorism.

In my opinion this development is a sign that the state of israel has finally matured and is willing to take the steps to make amends to the palestinians and secure true legitimacy in todays interational socio-political landscape, based on an acknowledgement of plural needs rather than blind adherence to scripture.

Also David - this is not reclaiming from an attacking force - this was invasion beyond the original lands - there is no such thing as legitimately claiming someone ele's territory because you need a buffer zone.

Have you read the UN Charter or any of the case law on acquiring territory? Are you just making this up?

Monika. On a whole two very intelligent posts. But i do feel the need to pick you up on two points.
Firstly I think the key to this dispute (and most others) are the moderates. Both Israelis and Palestinians. Objectively neither side is free from criticism. Having said this Sharon could just be the man that increases the size of the moderate political grouping in Israel despite the attrocities he resided over in the eighties. The fewer ultra orthodox nut cases there are to get in the way the better. I can't see much of a difference morally between Sharon and the late Arafat.
Secondly despite what the UN charter says it was this body (more accurately the league of nations) that conspired with Zionism to found the state of Israel. I'm sure God never sanctioned the dirty politics behind this-chosen people or not. However the UN has done very little to protect Israel subsequent to this and I don't think Israelis had much of a choice but to create buffers.
What I do know is that if this is ever to be resolved the moderates on both sides have to forgive the past and get on with a workable compromise.Even if the radicals do all they can to impede this.

Wrighta, I did say in my post that I had no idea - I'm not even going to pretend I care about the idiosyncracies of judaism, islam, christianity or anything else pertaining to a greater being. Each to their own - I was just using the 'eye for an eye' phrase to encapsulate what has been the climate in Palestine/Israel. The point was not to pick at any particular religious context - quite simply, anyone who kills in the name of their religion is grossly miguided - the point was that as far as I could tell, Israelis and Palestinians had begun an approach that seemed a break from this cycle of vengeance that has corrupted both combatants. What I don't understand is why there is so much negativity over a move that was, for once, not instigated or motivated by the idea of vengeance, but by the idea of good will?

And what we are seeing now is an example of this cycle of revenge - Israel kill five Palestinians (for whatever reason), Palestinian suicide bomber returns the favour. Instead of sitting and arguing about who is to blame, won't someone step in and say: 'Get back to the negotiating table.' This cycle has raged for near a century and has accomplished nothing. And as a further note, the Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai coincided with their first and most positive peace treaty with a former sworn enemy in Egypt. Let's think of that for a minute. Anything is possible when you put the gun away.

No Boaz, I am not Jewish.

Monika, the occupied territories were/are not being held illegally. Resolutions 242 basically sets a ‘land for peace’ deal.

You are reading the resolution the way you want to, or reading secondary sources that have interpreted 242 the way they want to. US and Israeli efforts at the UN saw the resolution pass so as it could be interpreted in this way, not so as Israel would be forced to hand back land captured in a defensive war without any guarantees as to their future safety.

When you refer to Sharon as a war criminal, if you are talking about the refugee camp in Lebanon perhaps you should note this: Sharon was not in charge of security at the refugee camps, Lebanese forces were. Sharon warned a Lebanese commander that security at the camps was inadequate (somehow this is cited as evidence that Sharon knew of the coming attack). Few Israeli’s could perceive Christian Arabs murdering their fellow Arabs.

Nice point regarding the Sinai, Nick- this constituted pullout from 90% of occupied territories after a deal with Egypt- think about that Monika.

Wrighta with all due respect your argument is deteriorating into one of semantics. Nick is right. For too long it has been about useless diatribe, territorial negotiations, and nit picking, as well as retaliation and provocation.

The resolution you speak of conveniently ignored the fact that the Arabs were there in the first place, and that the British had promised them a territory in Palestine before the Balfour declaration. The famous Lawrence of Arabia was caught in the middle of all this and lamented the bickering between tribes that ultimately led to the Zionist movement taking the upper hand in negotiations. He also later cringed at the fact that Britain capitualated to the Zionist demands. In effect this was in the face of jewish terrorism-most notably the murder of British police constables in Palestine (The Stern Gang/Menachem Begin).

Now before I'm called an anti semite I'm just pointing out the facts. Personally I believe Israel is here to stay. Having said that we are all on the brink of catastrophe if we don't force the Israelis/Arabs to bring this conflict under control. So instead of being a glass half full person why not try the opposite? Israel is not without blame in this matter.

Nobody will call you an anti Semite. Dont be ridiculous.

The creation of Israel was also a response to the Palestinian involvement with Hitler and the realisation that a two state solution was required to protect the Jews from racists exploiting Islam.

I dont believe the Zionist movement did get the upper hand. The Jews were given a state that was non-contiguous and hard to defend in a region that had been rife with pogroms and exiles for centuries- still they accepted this.

Im not saying the Israeli’s are without responsibility- but clearly the Palestinians and the Arab states have a much greater burden on their shoulders as long as they continue their program of terrorism and hate- the worst thing the PA can do is to continue training their children to become terrorists and maintain an educational program of anti-Semitism, (manipulated) Koran, and propaganda.

Israel was created as a means of separating the increasingly hostile jewish and muslim communities in the Transjordan territory. There is nothing spectacularly unique about that. There was no conspiracy, zionist or otherwise. The same approach was taken in relation to India and Pakistan, for example.

It is Israel's mistake that she settled the lands she seized after her Arab neighbours attacked. No-one ever asked the Israelis to do it, let alone forced them.

The Palestinian terrorists appear to have both nationalist and religious motivations. They also apply the art of atrocity in gross measures. That is beyond dispute.

There is nobody within the dysfunctional Palestinian communities of the West Bank who threatens to break terrorist authority there. As such, road-maps, land-for-peace deals and the like are merely fantasies for the western media. It is up to Israel to solve its political and security problems. Neither the US, nor any likely Palestinian leader can do it for her.

Unilateral withdrawals to create a viable, contiguous Palestinian entity in the West Bank territories is the only way to solve Israel’s Palestinian problem. Of course, this will not prevent such a state falling under the control of terrorists. In fact, it almost certainly will. This, however, is a problem to be addressed when it arises

Monika.. I hate to tell u this, but the UN is morally and militarily bankrupt and as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant. Yes, I know, arrogance.. pessimism....loony... 'religous nutter'..

The day you can show me that the UN is driven by agenda's which don't ultimately resolve down to who is top dog on the security council etc..... or, that umpteen zillion interest groups do not see it as convenient furtherance of their own single issue thing, or when u can show me that human nature in all its self interested glory is not at work there, then I might begin to believe it has some relevance.

The simple fact is:
every nation AT the UN is a result of people and powers doing everything AGAINST what the UN is supposed to stand for, and anyone who thinks that those who were on the rough end of the stick in each particular case have any less legitimacy to use the same 'power' or military related means against such regimes to redress the injustice inherrant in the previous outcome, is in my not so humble opinion... naive.

Classic example would be our own indigenous people.

As for Israel, a pan Arab alliance was out to destroy them. In such circumstances, pre-emption based on good intelligence makes a mockery of the concept of 'invasion'. It totally further justifies morally, them keeping and using the territorial gains for themselves. This is further justified when one considers that the Romans STOLE it from the Jews in AD70, where they had dwelt for 1400 yrs at least.

I'm all for the people displaced by the new Jewish nation having a homeland, but history of our indigenous show that we would be hypocritical to say "We can have OUR stolen land, but the Jews cannot"

So, I recommend consolidating the Palestinians on new territory, just like every other displaced people have had to do. (including MY ancestors driven from the Scottish Highlands)

Wrighta, your posts are becoming more and more right wing, as though you carry a personal bitterness towards the Palestinians. This is not the way to conduct a debate in any sort of intellectual form.
Pray do tell how the Palestinians were in cohorts with Hitler. Israel treats no one equally unless you are a white Zionist. Israeli Arabs have less rights than Israeli Jews, this is not democracy. I cringe every time I hear someone call Israel a democracy, she is not, by any stretch of the imagination.
How do you explain the billions that Israel has been given by America, to pay for the evacuation of Gaza, all new homes, land etc for the fundamentalist settlers...what were the Palestinians paid for the land and homes they have lived on for hundreds of years. There was NO compensation for them, why is that? Some have been given no time to leave their homes, with the bulldozers crushing whatever they couldn't carry. How can this be a way to find security...oh I forgot, the apartheid wall of course. It has always been that Israel has wanted a Jewish state only, and she will oppress the Palestinians, (the largest refugee population out of any country), until she gets her own way.
You talk of Arab terrorism...what did the Palestinian children do, that they are shot by snipers while in class, their schools (provided by the UN) targeted with bombs? I don't think anyone should resort to the indiscriminate killing of citizens, Arabs included, but you must admit that the argument would be a lot fairer if Palestine had a rich superpower backing it with aid for bullets and bombs. I am a non-believer myself, but I would venture to say that all the Gods must be turning in their graves over the violence caused in their names.

Janine.

Your accusation that I carry a “personal bitterness towards the Palestinians” is laughable.

The fact that you cringe when you hear Israel described as a democracy is of no surprise to me. What is a constant surprise is that those who bemoan how women, homosexuals and political opposition are disgracefully treated throughout the Middle East still seek to highlight Israel as some kind of child-killing nation comparable to South Africa.

In Israel the 20% Arab population is roughly reflected in the Knesset, where MK’s take home large salaries regardless of their ethnicity. Arab-Israelis can own property, go through the public school system. Homosexuals are not lynched in Israel. Young girls are not forced into marriage at the ripe old age of 9 for a goat. Women are not stoned to death because they were raped. Political opposition includes Arab-based parties. Torture in even soft forms has been ruled illegal by the Courts. Israeli-based human rights groups regularly take actions on behalf of both Arabs and Jews to the independent Supreme Court.

I do no believe that one of Israel’s neighbours can claim similar democratic traits. Correct me if I am wrong.

Compensation in any form cannot be given to the PA to distribute, we’ve seen how this disgusting, corrupt body uses foreign money many a-time. In any case, few of the Palestinians had lived on the ‘stolen land’ for “hundreds of years”. The few that had were farmers, and the early Jewish settlers were told (by the Zionist congress) NOT to buy their land.

Schools have never been targeted with bombs as you state, even though Palestinian bombmakers put their factories next to primary schools- which they do because its good for their image when anyone dies.

I cant imagine how awful this world would be if Palestinian terrorist groups were backed by a super power- AGAIN. It would not make the “argument” fairer as you claim.

When I was a little girl of 10yrs old, I came across a book on the Holocaust that belonged to a friend's mother. It had an extremely deep effect on me, obviously because of my age, but also that such horrors could occur between mankind. It haunted me for many years as the book also contained explicit photographs. I felt great empathy for the Jewish people for many many years after that.
However, it came time to study in depth and from all sides, the causes of the horrors which the Palestinian people were and still are being subjected to, once their land was given to the Zionists.
The best site that I have come across is www.jewsagainstzionism.com which I found to be profound reading that has helped shape my views on the Israeli/Palestinian issue.
I think that you would do yourself a great justice by investigating this site, as it is written by the true Torah Jews of the Jewish religion, as it is and always has been, until the breakaway of the Zionist organisation. It will also inform you that being Jewish is a religion and that they are not a race of people.
If I decide to start up a new religion, would you mind if I, after deciding that my God told me you were living on my land, came over, gave you 1hr to leave, then proceeded to bulldoze your house, arrest your husband/father, and leave you homeless with no right of recourse?
The culture of Islam and how it pertains to the Palestinian people is not what the arguement is about, no Arab countries call themselves democracies...but Israel does. When and if the people have had enough of the theocracy that rules their land, it is up to them to change it, as was starting to happen in Iran until the Americans decided to stir it all up with axis of evil.
Israel could not survive without the influx of immigrants from countries all over the world and the multiple billions received in Aid. I look forward to your impressions after reading this site.

I’ve seen the website before. Yes- not all Jews are Zionists. The reason you call it the best site you have come across is no doubt because it supports your argument. But I would consider zionism a political cause more than a religious one. I’m sure if you googled it many others would as well. From what I can remember of that website, it is opposed to Zionism because, when the messiah comes HE will gives the Jews a land and not before.

But - the primary reasoning behind the UN partition had nothing to do with giving the Jews the land God promised them- it was a genuine attempt to bring an end to the pogroms and other assorted violence, made especially important after WWII.

Israel calls itself a democracy because it is. Both Arabs and Jews are allowed to vote for their leaders, and as I noted they do. Essentially, this is what democracy is- universal adult suffrage without measures designed to ensure a certain outcome.

Perhaps you should put your advocacy for the Palestinians to a good cause- look at Jordanian treatment of Palestinians in relation to human rights and land issues.

What ‘horrors’ do the Israelis, according to you, subject the Palestinians to? Let me guess, the so-called ‘Jenin massacre’?

CALLING my home " Your PROMISED LAND"

You may say whatever....and try to shed the crocodile tears as Jews always do. Kicked out from the green pastures of Europe because they called other people's homes their "promised land", they turned to Palestine and terrorised them in their hearths and homes yet call them terrorists. Feeling ashamed, no because the reality is far from their breasts!

Time will tell because when we get to the moon they will claim it to be "THEIR PROMISED LAND" and kick other out...,that is if they can!

Why have they been troubled for all those centuries? And still troubling and troubled?

Keep thinking

is about time for the Jews of Israel to come to the Conclusion that they do not need Nuclear Power America will be there to Protect them i am sure? why no Nuke for Iran if Israel do not want to come Down to Earth and get Rid of the Nuke in Israel ? Iran has no wish to Invade Israel ? So far the Jews of Israel Have Invaded Some Parts of Palestine and Illigaly against all common Sense Especially that America will not be there for Ever to Protect Israel will the Jews of Israel Perhaps one day in the Future Start Dropping Nukes All over the Middle-East?