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The Forum > Article Comments > Let's hear it for the nation state > Comments

Let's hear it for the nation state : Comments

By Graham Young, published 17/12/2019

Congratulations to Boris Johnson. They've been comparing him to Churchill, and while it might be a little hyperbolic, this is one of the most momentous elections in world history.

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" … Enlightenment, and classical liberalism and intelligent conservatism, are all successfully fighting back".

And not before time. We are dangerously close to chaotic Left lunacy and ruin. Now, Canada and New Zealand have to be brought into line. The Anglosphere, not the Commonwealth, not the weirdo parts of the West in Europe, are what must be concentrated on and rebuilt.

The indulging of elites who think that they can ignore democracy is over.

Well said, Graham.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 7:54:08 AM
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Here here !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 8:00:25 AM
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Spot-on analysis !
Let's just hope that the loonies here don't start importing the (L)eft-overs from there to these shores. There's no question that they will bring out some "Guest Speakers".
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 8:02:41 AM
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Ah Yes. So the nation state is the best and primary unit of democratic governance. This takes us to a more fundamental question. What is a nation?

For the Scots, for example, is their nation Scotland or Britain? Is Northern Ireland properly part of a British or an Irish nation?

There is one aspect of the British election that nobody has raised. This concerns a resurgence of English nationalism. This is of such magnitude that voters were prepared to risk a break-up of the Union by forcing a reluctant Scotland to also leave the EU.

Strongest support for Brexit came from England (especially its north) and to a lesser extent from Wales, with the rest being majority remain.

It is ironic that the Engish historically had great distain for the nationalism of other peoples (especially in the days of Empire), yet themselves seemingly could not abide being subject to decisions made in Brussels.

Why Britain ever joined the EU is an enigma. They were always going to be net contributors because of the amount of money the EU spends subsidising its farmers. The fact that de Gaulle for years kept Britain from joining was a factor. Maybe they had also expected to be let run the joint?
Posted by Bren, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 8:10:25 AM
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Graham- Great article. Thank you. And yes it should not be squandered.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 8:45:21 AM
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This concerns a resurgence of English nationalism.
Bren,
Only if the Leftists continue their insidious campaign !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 9:04:56 AM
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Actually Bren, the nation state was defined in the Westphalia Treaty
in 1648. It defined what a government is and what are borders.
It defined the meaning of sovereignty.
It is not recognised by China as it was not present.
This is why China just does what it likes anywhere anytime such as
the nine dotted line in the Sth China Sea.
China considers itself to be the only sovereign country.
ie the Central Kingdom.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 9:26:37 AM
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Dear Bren,

«This takes us to a more fundamental question. What is a nation?»

Excellent question:

In ancient/biblical times this referred to a group of related people who identified with their common ancestry.

In modern times, this refers to a super-imposed imaginary unity among a group of mostly-unrelated people who happen to reside in a particular area. The larger that area, likely the less commonality among them.

The author stated correctly:

"Sovereignty should remain with the demos and governance is something that should be done as close as possible to the people it directly affects", but then added: "and in most of the world, this is the nation state": pity he lacked the courage to carry his conclusion all the way rather than stopping at the "nation-state". According to the author's own admission, Australia is far too big and it is wrong to govern and "directly affect" people who live 1000's of kilometers away.

I wish the Scotts and Catalanians every success in gaining their independence. Let us also continue to pray for the freedom of the occupied people of Tibet.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 3:08:14 PM
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It seems that every generation of youngsters has to learn all over again about the flaws (to put it mildly) in socialism, and its inevitable descent into fascism.

But as well, there has been a winding-down of the strength and numbers of working classes everywhere with massive economic transformations since the War, while at the same time, their children (or at least, somebody's) go on to university education in ever-increasing numbers, and see themselves as the rightful heirs, by virtue of their evident intelligence and new competencies, of the controls of the state.

So dissatisfied workers drift across to parties like Farage's and Trump and One Nation here. And disaffected intellectuals - some from lifelong LNP/Conservative families - drift over here to the Greens rather than to Labor, and to Labour in the UK. So there is a hollowing-out of political allegiances, leaving both Labor here and Labour there depleted of traditional support and dependent on new and fickle alliances with people further up the class totem-pole.

Wouldn't be dead for quids !

Thank you, Graham !

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 3:10:16 PM
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It seems that every generation of youngsters has to learn all over again about the flaws (to put it mildly) in socialism, and its inevitable descent into fascism.
loudmouth2,
Sadly, it always takes emptied coffers before some come to their senses !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 7:17:43 PM
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Well, for me, I only care for my little corner of the world...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjWGgaxCjnE

Thankfully, Boris, as a populist, is light years away from Thatcher, who was devoid of personality, and empathy.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 7:20:59 PM
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Diver Dan- I don't know much about this singer but she sounds like someone I should know- she sounds like she fights the good fight against identity politics- fought against the promotion of gay identity in schools- for 60 years. Now 79 years young. Kudos.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 10:34:59 PM
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Too true Canum Maum.
Identity politics comes firmly under the heading:
You can fool some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all the time.

And to that I add, thankfully the pendulum of sense and reality, appears to be swinging back.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 8:12:26 AM
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Correct!
A small comment on the return to Enlightenment traditions.
The ‘Great Conversation‘ which contains most of the ideas of the great philosophers, thinkers, writers and theologians has continued for nearly 2000 years. Most wrote seriously of the events of their times and made predictions fir the future.

From today’s perspective, Only one name from the 20th century could seriously be added to that great list of learned people, mostly men,

James Burnham.
Although he wrongly, predicted Germany would win the 2nd war, that prediction came to pass in economic terms with Germany’s eventual domination of Europe.Burnham wrote of the start of the beginning of the self-destruction of socialism in 1945. He saw its two great champions destroy each other.
He predicted in 1945 the rise of The Managerial Class - the group Graham describes so factually.
He predicted in 1949, the uniting of the working people and the entrepreneurial classes to elected leaders who would destroy the Managerial Elites.

Well done Graham ... you’ve very accurately confirmed his predictions.

Keith Kennelly

Ps Burnham’s three books should be required reading in our education institutions
The Managerial Revolution, 1945, The Macheviallians’ 1949, and The Suicide of The West 1960s?
They are heavy reading ... in the language of a true scholar.
Posted by imajulianutter, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 8:36:17 AM
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.

Dear Graham,

.

You wrote :

1. « The primary argument that has won in the UK is that while cooperation between countries is a good thing, and supranational bodies are an important mechanism to achieve that, these bodies should be no more than coordinating mechanisms »

Is not the UK itself such a supranational body ? The UK is a unitary state composed of four countries : England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (c.f., the UK parliamentary web site : http://members.parliament.uk/region). And is not the UK more than just a “coordinating mechanism” ?

What freedom of choice do each of the four countries have as to who does the “coordinating” – UK or EU ?

2. « … the Tory take-out message was "Let's get this thing done" – "this thing", not even "Brexit"… ». Well, Boris made no bones about what he meant by “this thing” :

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/boris-johnson-brexit-bulldozer-gridlock/2019/12/10/id/945321/

3. « This UK election was about two things – whether the nation state is the best and primary unit of democratic governance; and welfare capitalism versus retro-socialism, cultural Marxism, and Modern Monetary Theory »

The election gave me the impression it was about two things too, Graham, but not the same two things that you indicate in your article.

What I saw was that Boris was engaged in an all-out electoral campaign to “get Brexit done” as though he was disputing a second referendum on that single important question. Whereas, as you rightly pointed out, “labour had no real position on Brexit”. Labour was not campaigning in a pseudo-referendum on Brexit. It was campaigning in the 2019 UK general election. Boris and Jeremy did not appear to me to be participating in the same election.

Boris and the Tories won what they (rightly or wrongly) interpreted to be a pseudo-referendum on Brexit and now have to deal with the very real, vengeful, Moby-Dick demolisher they just roped in (much to their surprise) on the basis of “winner takes all”.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 9:14:22 AM
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Keith Kennelly- James Burnham sounds interesting and dangerous. Appropriate material for my reading list. I'll be careful not to burn my fingers. Thanks.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 10:18:06 AM
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Banjo- Mate. In battle it's not your hair cut that wins. ;)
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 10:20:44 AM
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I feel we are, or maybe, at an inflexion point in history. We'll need to await Trump's re-election bid to know for certain.

But just now it seems that the post-WW2 institutions and certainties are being unwound.

The march toward all-encompassing multi-national organisations has stalled and is no longer favoured or paid homage to. The US is resigning as the world's policeman. The UN is on the nose everywhere. COP25 shows that there isn't and never will be agreement about how to reduce world emissions, even for those who think such things matter.

The guiding notion of free-trade is being rejected. Not because it doesn't work as advertised but that it doesn't work in the real world. Nations like China, Vietnam and India have or are playing the system and, while the west was prepared to turn a blind-eye to it for a while, they no longer will.

Previously it was hoped that if we allowed China to cheat while they developed, they'd eventually become good free-traders and abide by the rules. No one thinks that any longer. And so they are now being called-out on their cheating and being forced to back-track.

Equally, the lower and much of the middle-classes in the west are now realising that they were played for chumps by the elite pushing free-trade and multi-nationalism. They were told that it was good to allow manufacturing and its jobs to go overseas because those jobs would be replaced by something better.

But the jobs weren't replaced. Instead an elite whose jobs were never in jeopardy got the benefit of cheap foreign goods paid for by cheap foreign labour, while the lower classes got shafted.

/cont
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 10:25:45 AM
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/cont

But no more. Trump gave voice to the losers of these systems and road it to victory. Johnson has detached vast swathes of the working class from Labour by giving voice to their concerns. ScoMo likewise here. The Adani workers versus the chardonnay socialists issue in the last election is a small but excellent example of the world-wide phenomena. Labor here and Labour there tried to ride both horses. But its no longer possible to get support from the downtrodden lower classes as well as the urban elite. Adani and anti-coal don't mix.

Trumpism is putting the sword to the old world order. If he gets another 4 years, unencumbered by bogus investigations, he will remake the world and the next two generations. He'll be supported by the rest of the anglosphere.

Yes, an inflexion point
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 10:25:51 AM
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Great question Bren, and I think the answer is a bit fluid. It's true that some nations treat their internal nationalities just as poorly as the Europeans treated Britain in the Brexit negotiations. The Basque Separatists don't fare too well under the Spanish, for example.

At one stage I thought you needed a common language, but a moment's thought indicates that is wrong, including thinking about my country of birth, Canada.

I think the best definition of a nation is a customary one, rather than a strictly legal one, and the nation state is the legal expression of the customary position.

One could argue that nation states involve a common understanding of what it is to be a member of that nation, which is an idea that pluralist Australia has taken to heart. But I'm not sure that is true either.

But however you define it I would contend that those boundaries, often negotiated over centuries, are the best way to govern the people of the world, and that the idea it can be managed on some supranational basis has always been mad.

We might ask what is Australia, but we can quite clearly see that China and India are both not-Australia, as are Saudi Arabia, Papua New Guinea, Venezuela, etc. etc. But supranational government either involves the largest countries winning, if you do it on one person one vote, or the smallest countries, if you do it on the basis of one country one vote. Either way, I'm happy to claim that countries like Australia are run better than just about anywhere else, so we should be left to show the way with best governance and best economic practice. They will be copied and propagate. The alternative is that less than best practice will be imposed from elsewhere.
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:19:43 PM
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.

Dear Canem Malum,

.

You wrote :

« In battle it's not your hair cut that wins … »

Quite right, Canem Malum. Boris knew that. That’s why he respected biblical mythology to the letter. His miraculous election obviously marks a revival of divine right of rule in the United Kingdom.

But, as our Aboriginal cineaste compatriot, Warwick Thornton, reminded us just ten years ago now, for every Samson, there is always a Delilah lurking somewhere close by :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXSdOyh1HaM

That said, Australia is not the UK and perhaps Sir Tom Jones’ version is more appropriate in Boris’s aristocratic circles :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPl_GEznKxM

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 11:55:56 PM
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Banjo- Touché. I'll need to think about that one.
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 19 December 2019 3:42:49 AM
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Dear GrahamY,

You write;

“This UK election was about two things – whether the nation state is the best and primary unit of democratic governance; and welfare capitalism versus retro-socialism, cultural Marxism, and Modern Monetary Theory.”

Well no, it was also about Scottish independence in the face of a Brexitting UK. I did note that you made no mention of the surge in popularity of the SNP going from 35 to 48 seats.

The Scots also made a definite statement about 'whether the nation state is the best and primary unit of democratic governance'. If it is something you applaud then I imagine you will have no issue supporting a second referendum on Scottish independence.

Also Boris and Churchill? Really?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 19 December 2019 12:21:03 PM
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@mhaze

How do ScoMo give workers a voice?
Posted by Assembly Line Human, Thursday, 19 December 2019 8:06:09 PM
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How do ScoMo give workers a voice?
Assembly Line Human,
By not treating them as assembly line humans !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 21 December 2019 4:31:53 PM
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I would definitely be in favor of a new referendum on Scotland, provided the poms were allowed to vote on whether they wanted the Scots.

I reckon most poms would be glad to see the backs of the bludgers the Scots have become.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 21 December 2019 8:09:54 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Well the poms certainly balked at paying their fair share in the EU getting a 60% percent discount on their net payments since Thatcher yet still whinged every bloody year. The EU is well rid of them.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 22 December 2019 4:31:41 PM
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Sai, the Saka People or Soghdians,
Mr Opinion,
There are rumours of these people having lived in Northern Australia & New Guinea so, perhaps they're planning to return ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 23 December 2019 7:03:39 AM
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Was privy to some Australian and other management of a global UK company who described Brexit (once called) as the 'start of a car crash in slow motion', still ongoing.

Hence, would hardly suggest it's a great victory for Great Britain with the collapse of the sensible centre, divided society and potential of losing Scotland (at least metaphorically) but more positively, a possible reunited Ireland.

Can also add that Putin will become more empowered while the Tories are too reliant upon Russian business donations and complicit in The City specialists in co.formation and money laundering via offshore tax shelters; EU tax and financial regulations calling for transparency are reason enough for Brexit.

Brexit referendum and now another election have been light on policy for the Tories but heavy on sentiments, beliefs, nostalgia etc. from ageing and/or retired voters in regional electorates; ably supported by US related think tanks and related political communication support.

However, Johnson and the Tories are now compelled to play their hand and divulge details of any Brexit trade deal which is simply the start of the beginning with many road bumps in the way to replace major trading bloc process and rules (in favour of Trumpian 'deals' of which the UK will be very prone).

For business, sole operators and SMEs who trade with the EU in goods and/or services they face much uncertainty but that's fine because Johnson said 'fck business' (unless it's a large global corporate).

It's hardly a compelling argument the suggestion of a new global Anglo trade empire with Trump calling the shots on a trade deal and leadership, while the UK and Australia follow as usual; decline of the WASP exceptionalism channeling the 'great replacement theory'.

John Bull (using English sexual imagery) will be 'spit roasted' so the UK better drop it's trousers, bend over and don't forget to take the false teeth out and think of England.

While the UK will now have less prominent EU trade status than e.g. Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey, relying upon sovereign sentiments, the future will probably be something like the existing EU arrangements.
Posted by Andras Smith, Monday, 23 December 2019 10:46:33 AM
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UK is the UK in name only now, runaway immigration has derailed everything !
Australia still has a tiny chance but will Australians grasp the opportunity ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 8:03:20 AM
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The English used to complain about the Romans, Vikings, Normans, Hugenot, Irish, Scottish, Germans and even Australians in more recent times.

Not sure what threat permanent immigrants, or more significant numbers of temporary residents have on Australia?

Without the latter churn over of net financial contributors, our tax base would decline through an ageing permanent population requiring pensions, health care and related services; unless taxes steadily increase for working age?
Posted by Andras Smith, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 8:21:52 AM
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Andras Smith,
I didn't think there'd be a need to actually spell it out but here it is for people who don't read between the lines.
Runaway or unwilling integrator immigration i.e. as the case is in Britain & Europe. Soldiers of disunity !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 2:57:35 PM
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https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/man-attacked-after-whittlesea-mayor-s-flag-waving-stokes-up-balkan-tensions-20191218-p53l7x.html

Is that the kind of nonsense what we need here ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 26 December 2019 4:03:09 PM
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