Dear NNS,

I believe that genuine believers can be role models and great people. That does not mean that God exists.

To David f. You said:

<<I believe that genuine believers can be role models and great people.>>

I'm surprised to hear you say that. Almost enough to bring up past discussions and ask "what changed your mind?" But no. Let the past die in the past. At least those things can die away.

<<That does not mean that God exists.>>

No, people behaving themselves isn't proof of God. I wasn't meaning to tie those two points together that closely. Only that there is a growing trend to demonize christians as the evil of the world or some such thing. In Ian's article he actually acknowledges that genuine Christians are good. That's a lot more then I've heard for a while from non-Christians in OLO. (The only ones outspoken enough to talk about Christianity or about Christians never acknowledge anything good coming from Christians or Christianity).

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However, regardless of that. The claim in the article that God is a made up or mistaken belief is completely wrong. Here's the way to look at it. If you've never seen a kangaroo, but have heard about them from other people. Never saw a picture of a kangaroo, but all around you in Australia people can tell you what they'd seen or dealt with regarding kangaroos then there's a lot of evidence in that; even if you never see the same things others had seen.

The same is true regarding God. However instead of acknowledging the evidence of countless people across the world, from different religions (even phenomenon from non-believers in any religion having stories that make them question the world around them); instead of ever coming close to acknowledging that information, those who don't want to believe, A) ignore it all; B) make excuses for the information as if that fits what's described by some outstanding observations, or C) belittle the population as a whole as either too dumb or a giant conspiricy lying to the world.

Imagine if any of those three tactics of doubt were used to say that kangaroos weren't real. The person would be a laughing stock for thinking such a thing and trying to rationalize it.

No, as a matter of facing the world as it is. God exists. There's no other way around the matter.

Dear NNS,

Nothing changed my mind. I never denied that genuine believers can't be role models or great people. You have built up a picture of me in your mind. People may believe in nonsense and still be good people. People have believed in Thor, Apollo, the God of the Bible, Allah, Krishna and lots of other gods. You believe in the God you believe in. They believe in the god they believe in. All gods are human inventions. The fact that millions of people believe in God is not evidence that there is a god. At one time many people believed that the sun went around the earth. The fact that many people believed in it did not make it true. You will continue to believe in a God which, like all other gods, is a creation of the human imagination. That does not mean you are a bad or stupid person.

Some Christians and some non-Christians are very good people. Some Christians and some non-Christians are very bad people. Most people follow the religion of their parents.

To David f.

I am not talking about beliefs. I'm talking about observations. People can have beliefs, hope on them and trust them. Then people can have observations in their lives, which can test or confirm their already held beliefs. In another thread, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20254&page=17 Is Mise and Banjo Paterson are discussing a specific location and the apparent miracles that have been documented as happening there. My point is that there are too many observation in the world to conclude that God doesn't exist. Even if you yourself never witnessed them. The excuses for denying those observations are the three I outlined in my last reply.

One thing though to correct. I haven't built a false picture of you in my head. I've read what you've wrote. Read too much I'm afraid. Or should I remind you of a conversation regarding telling people to love God, and explain the observation that this helps people be better then they were before resulted in a long continuous rant from you on Christians and gunboats. Instead, if you have any belief that genuine Christians can be good people, regardless of your views on the beliefs being nonsense, then that is a very different change of view. I gathered from you, in several conversations, that Christianity is harmful and should be oppressed and fought against at every opportunity. (All of which I disagree with). To say that people can be Christian and good is something very different from what you've presented before. Let the past die in the past David, but don't expect it to be forgotten if it was never even apologized about. If you've changed a negative and prejudged view, then that's a good thing. I hope that there is such a change.

Dear NNS,

I think Christianity has inspired many bad things, and it would be better had it never been invented. It has also inspired good things, but in my reading of history the bad outweighs the good. Many of the doctrines of Christianity such as the virgin birth, a man god, the man god taking other's sins upon himself, a God of three parts, life after death, a devil, heaven and hell seem like things no reasonable person could believe. Some Christians can be kind, generous, thoughtful and be generally good people in spite of the nonsense or even because of the nonsense. However, I also think that people can rise above superstition or ideology into which they have been indoctrinated. There are many different gods that people believe in. There are many sacred books - the Buddhist tripitaka, the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, the Jewish Bible which is different from the Christian Bible, the Muslim Koran and others. Can they all be wrong and yours the right one? To me it is more reasonable to think that all including yours are the products of humans trying to explain the world. In all of them may be some truth. I like the Christian idea of hate the sin but love the sinner. One can hate the sin of Christianity but love Christians.