Sells,

<< A friend has pointed out that my statement: "However, the early Church was doing theology long before a word of the bible had been written." is incorrect. Of course the early Church before the letters of Paul were being circulated had the Hebrew Scriptures. A very important point.>>

The evidence is more than from the Hebrew Scriptures. The FACTS are that the Early Church Fathers quoted from the NT before the canon of Scripture was finalised in the late 4th century. Here is one example:

“Peter in his Epistle says Though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations; that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than that of gold which perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise, and honour, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ; whom, having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see Him not, yet believing, you rejoice with joy unspeakable, and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls”.
This is a citation of 1 Peter 1:6-9 from Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, Bk IV, ch 20). Available at: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02104.htm

Clement of Alexandria lived ca. AD 150-211/215.

An earlier citation from the Epistle of Peter is in Polycarp’s only surviving Letter to the Philippians, ch 1, ‘In whom, though now you see Him not, you believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory’ (1 Peter 1:8): See: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm.

Polycarp was born ca. AD 69 and was martyred ca. 155 at age 86.

PzPen,
This is a rather disappointing response from you. Let's start with a few facts. I was not educated at a liberal Anglican school but in the Uniting Church where I was taught systematic theology by an ex-Presbyterian who was a Barth scholar. As you know, or should, Barth is the great post-liberal theologian of the 20th C.

There are facts in the NT. Jesus was certainly "crucified under Pontius Pilate" as the creed says.
You need to read "Theology and the scientific Imagination" by Funkenstein or/and "The great code" by Northrop Frye or "The biblical narrative" by Hans Frei or any number or works about the nature of biblical texts and their exegesis. It is indeed in theology 101 when most people learn about these things and abandon the simplistic fundamentalism that they learned in bible college.

Sells,

<<This is a rather disappointing response from you. Let's start with a few facts. I was not educated at a liberal Anglican school but in the Uniting Church where I was taught systematic theology by an ex-Presbyterian who was a Barth scholar. As you know, or should, Barth is the great post-liberal theologian of the 20th C.>>

This is a straw man. False scenario. Fake theology. I did not state one thing about your education. Not a thing. This is how I began my post: "If I were a student and you were teaching Theology 101 at your liberal Anglican theological college and you taught the content of this article...."

I based my response on the content of your article and not on your academic background. Please get the facts straight.

<<There are facts in the NT. Jesus was certainly "crucified under Pontius Pilate" as the creed says.>>

Facts, eh? How can that possibly be when you said in the article,

<<"facts" only took on importance after the work of the English empiricists Francis Bacon (1561-1626) and John Locke (1632-1704).>>

You need to be more careful with the words you use.

<<You need to read "Theology and the scientific Imagination" by Funkenstein or/and "The great code" by Northrop Frye or "The biblical narrative" by Hans Frei or any number or works about the nature of biblical texts and their exegesis. It is indeed in theology 101 when most people learn about these things and abandon the simplistic fundamentalism that they learned in bible college.>>

I'm familiar with the works you cited and your antagonism to fundamentalism / evangelicalism is obvious throughout your writings. I’m waiting for you to engage in discussion about the issues that differ between my evangelicalism and your neo-orthodoxy, i.e. modernism or postmodernism.

You haven’t gotten to the nitty gritty yet. You seem to love sloganeering and misrepresenting what I write.

.

Dear Peter,

.

You wrote :

« The mistake of the Reformation was to give the bible to the isolated and often theologically uneducated individual to make of it what they will. The result in our time is that readers living in a culture dominated by scientism draw scientific conclusions i.e. conclusions that rely on factual evidence »

Bibles are rarely “given” to “theologically uneducated individuals”. They may be purchased for US$12 (hardcover, second hand on Amazon). Perhaps they are “given” to non-isolated, theologically educated liberal/Evangelical priests/ministers who interpret the sacred biblical texts for their devotees according to their particular Church dogma – and format their brains either “liberal” or “Evangelical”.

You also wrote :

« The problem is that once these "facts" have been established, assent to them displaces faith. Faith then demands that we sacrifice our intellect and believe in the impossible. A great chasm opens between how we experience the world and our beliefs … This is how Christianity has become a laughing stock in our time and why the Church is falling apart all around us …

We must remind ourselves that the bible … uses all of the facilities of the ancient world; rhetoric, story, poetry and legend. What it does not do is to give us dot points pertaining to facts »

That’s true, but I don’t think “Christianity has become a laughing stock”.

Certainly, people are better informed today and far more knowledgeable than they were 2,000 years ago, but that is not the main reason “why the Church is falling apart” as you say. I think most Christians still hope there is a god – whether they believe there is one or not – if only on their death bed (or that of their loved-ones).

The main reason Church populations increase or decrease around the world has nothing to do with “belief”. It is simply because religion is inherited. The populations of Western (predominantly Christian) countries are shrinking due to their weak birth rates whereas, by comparison, Muslim populations around the world are expanding rapidly due to higher birth rates.

.

Thank you Peter for this great article.

I wish half the readers will actually understand the depth of what you wrote, but I am afraid that this does not seem to be the case.

Banjo,

<<Bibles are rarely “given” to “theologically uneducated individuals”.>>

This is not so in Australia and around the world. There is an organisation, Gideons' International. See: http://www.gideons.org/. Gideons' members, with the school's permission, go to high schools and offer New Testaments to students who accept or reject voluntarily.

They place full Bibles in hospital bedside tables, motels and doctors' waiting rooms.

Aren't the Gideons active where you live?