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The Forum > Article Comments > Religious have no right to judgment on sexual orientation or gender identity > Comments

Religious have no right to judgment on sexual orientation or gender identity : Comments

By Robin Banks, Anja Hilkemeijer and Rodney Croome, published 6/12/2018

This means, for example, that a Jewish school can turn away a teacher if they are Christian, but not just because they are gay, transgender, Aboriginal or in a wheelchair.

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"Effectively, the state is saying that, while religious freedom matters, homophobia and transphobia cause too much damage to be justified in law as religious values."

What does law have to do with religious values?
The religious aren't concerned with laws, they're concerned with sins.

Tell me is it ok to put a gun to a Muslim's head and force them to eat bacon?

- Because it's the exact same thing.

What happened to religious freedom?

You're forcing the religious entity to go against their religious beliefs, but the gay student who 'chooses' that particular school for prestige reputation isn't forced to go against theirs, and obviously does not support the schools religious beliefs - or the rights of other parents to decide the curriculum they want and pay for - for their kids.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 6 December 2018 9:06:26 AM
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The sexually confused could start their own schools. They raised millions last year for the SSM campaign; Qantas and other big business supporters could chip in; or, they could used the state system where anything goes. Ah, sorry. They won't do that because it's nothing to do with homos, genuine or trendy, it's all about power and tearing down Christianity and democracy.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 6 December 2018 11:30:23 AM
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Two very succinct comments above I would not be able to enlarge on, but wholeheartedly agree with.

I have a sinking feeling though, as part of the payback scheme of the secularists, there will be more religious oppression, not less of it. All justified of course, and driven home by the newly elected Labor Party, and preached through the channels of the ABC...
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 6 December 2018 1:18:47 PM
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"Such discrimination has been against the law in Tasmania for twenty years.

We are not aware of any problems caused by our enlightened approach.

No school has complained of its religious freedom being impinged.

The sky hasn't fallen in."

Such discrimination has NOT been against the law in other states. I are not aware of any problems caused by this enlightened approach, other than in the fevered minds of the SJW brigade.

The sky hasn't fallen in, although the standard chicken little's assure us it will...no really, any time now..promise.

If a Jewish school can avoid employing a Christian based on religion and, presumably, a Muslim school can avoid employing a Buddhist based on religion, can a Christian school avoid employing an atheist based on religion? And if so, then can they reject all LGBTIWTF crowd who reject a religion that abhors their practices?

In the end, this is all about the continued assault on Christianity. Remember Tasmania was the place where Christianity was sued by the Discrimination Board for enunciating their case against gay marriage. Its hardly the paragon of religious harmony
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 6 December 2018 3:34:37 PM
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I think that people should be free to practice their
religions as long as their religious practices do not
break any Australian laws. We have a secular government
and no official or state religion. Governments treat
all citizens as equal regardless of religion. Religious
laws have no legal status in Australia. Therefore
religious schools have no right to judgement on
sexual orientation or gender identity. To do so
would quality as discrimination - and it is against the
law. A law that we are all supposed to abide by - which is
only fair, considering that religious schools do get
government funding. They should be expected to abide by
government enacted legislature.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 6 December 2018 4:08:36 PM
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Agree 100% and wholeheartedly. Let the facts, proven beyond question, science and the mighty irrefutable truth speak for themselves/be known!

Then let the chips and the homophobic bigots/flat earth fundamental fanatics fall where they may, or just founder on the rock of the proven beyond question, TRUTH!

Simply put, believing a long-held inculcated/brainwashed from birth, view to be true, doesn't make any more true than a flat world, six thousand years old and at the centre of the universe!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Thursday, 6 December 2018 6:21:10 PM
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any school that does not teach natural marriage between man and woman obviously denies biology and is not worth its salt.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 6 December 2018 11:24:00 PM
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Most schools discourage all forms of sexuality in school- from memory.
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 7 December 2018 2:00:27 AM
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Sexual orientation is a non-issue - the whole thing is about those who hate religion trying to test the water to see how far they can oppress the religious.

Now the main reason for people to hate religion is their belief that the fulfilment of life is in pleasures (including, but not limited to, sexual pleasures), while religion teaches austerity instead and that pleasures and happiness are very different things.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 7 December 2018 2:26:25 AM
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"I think that people should be free to practice their
religions as long as their religious practices do not
break any Australian laws."

That's all well and good Foxy until you get someone in government who says "Well we'll have to make some new laws that step on these religious zealots toes then", and do it deliberately.

This is a difficult topic for me because I usually try to be fair, and I know that I can't empower one religion I tolerate without empowering another I dislike.

- In all fairness I prefer Christianity to Islam;
You don't see Christians running around murdering the religious of different faiths, at least not recently.

But religions / schools / funding, its all a tricky issue.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 7 December 2018 2:52:38 AM
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AC,

Given how many religious institutions, many of them
schools, were raised in the Royal Commission as
having a "do nothing" approach to child sexual abuse,
the temerity of taking action on this borders on the
breathtaking.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 7 December 2018 10:15:40 AM
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I am still wavering in dis-belief that there is a 'religion' that advocates or preaches 'harm' to others.
It even prescribes harm to it's own followers, (the women that is) I find it confusing and unsettling that, not only is there such a 'cult', but that it is openly invited into our country.
Now before the do-gooders and the loony left get all twisted with rage, stop and give thought to the logic of all this.
I have watched many debates involving, and about, Muslims and the Koran, and the one thing that has always stood out is the steadfast attitude of the Muslim when asked questions which clearly put the Muslim, and the Koran, at odds with the local laws.
Every time they up-held the koran and not local law.
In the case of the koran, this is bad, as it encourages the killing of certain people, just to mention an extreme example.
So where do you draw the line?
Obviously, it is not fair to deny all Muslims entry into a country, but, some mechanism has to be created to protect people from the risk of these acts being carried out, (and of course, in the name of Allah) because it too is recognised as a religion.
In my defense, I would caution any law makers in creating restrictions directed at such entities, because in doing so can be seen as prejudicial and discriminatory, and can bring forward any retaliatory actions as might otherwise not have been acted upon without, what they would see or perceive as, provocation.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 7 December 2018 12:17:01 PM
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Alot of parents don't seem to get this, but most private schools are owned by churches. They don't just exist to keep middle class kids away from the riff-raff. These schools were formed to allow the churches to teach their religion. The rest of us don't get lecture churches on what they can and cannot preach.
Posted by benk, Friday, 7 December 2018 12:58:44 PM
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Religion does not play a part in who we
allow into this country. We have equality under
the law. This means that nobody is
treated differently from anybody else because
of their race, ethnicity or country of origin,
because of their age, gender, marital status,
or disability, or because of their political
or religious beliefs.

If you want to see this changed you can lobby
your Member of Parliament. Elected
Parliamentarians are the only bodies able to make
our laws or delegate the authority to make laws.

We're all expected in this country to obey laws
established by our governments. Equally, we're
protected by the rule of law. This means that no one
is "above the law" even if they hold a position of
power, like politicians or the police.

And any religious group or person that breaks the
law will be dealt with accordingly.

Criminals do not just belong to one particular group.
They come in a variety of forms. As history has shown.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 7 December 2018 1:44:05 PM
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So, if a religious school finds that one of its pupils or a teacher is actively advocating things that are against that religions faith/beliefs, then that religion should cop it sweet and put up with it?

Should the same apply to political parties or would they be allowed to expel a dissenter?

Should the Greens be allowed to expel a member who openly advocates the ownership of firearms for self-defence and who demonstrates for the use of coal in coal-fired power stations?

Or, who, heaven forbid, openly calls for farmers and others living in the bush, to be allowed to cut down any trees that they see as a fire hazard?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 7 December 2018 7:55:06 PM
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farmers and others living in the bush, to be allowed to cut down any trees that they see as a fire hazard?
Is Mise,
Bureaucrats & do-gooders from outside an electorate must not be allowed to dictate on any policy affecting the electorate. Presently, they do & the mess is there for everyone to see.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 8 December 2018 6:06:02 AM
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I have just noted and read, once more, the topic heading.
'Religions have no right to judgement on sexual orientation or gender identity'.
I'm not so sure.
Are the authors saying that these topics are taboo and not for discussion, 'at all', by religious institutions?
I believe that for the time being, religion is being held in such a high regard that it is, in some cases, a form of law and dictates the very standards used in every day lives.
As is the case with those religions who subscribe to traditional and historical interpretations of human values, morals, ethics and standards.
In this day and age of enlightenment, as some would try to justify it, I for one am relieved to know that there is a 'constant' we can turn to for re-assurance and re-alignment whenever there is an event such as now, where we are forced to accept a new dogma which we 'know' is wrong and makes us feel uncomfortable or even clinically ill.
In their attempt at enforcing their particular dogma, the authors are attempting to force the issue of religion having 'any' say in this matter, thereby giving them one less barrier to surmount, in their quest for total dominance of this topic.
If you stop and think about it, this topic is precisely within the purview of religion.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 8 December 2018 6:49:02 AM
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Foxy,

"Religious laws have no legal status in Australia. Therefore..."
we should do away with all secular observance of religious law.

Christmas Day and Good Friday come to mind, these are days set aside under religious law for observance, anyone worth their salt, who objects to religious laws or observances should have the backbone to stand up to this theocratic nonsense and insist on working on those days and at their ordinary rate of pay.
Penalty rates for Sunday work will also be eschewed as a matter of principle.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 8 December 2018 4:37:18 PM
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Foxy,

"Religion does not play a part in who we
allow into this country. We have equality under
the law. This means that nobody is
treated differently from anybody else because
of their race, ethnicity or country of origin,
because of their age, gender, marital status,
or disability, or because of their political
or religious beliefs."

Rubbish,

"Failed to meet the Health requirements
The applicant did not meet the health requirements needed for the partner visa. All applicants for an Australian partner visa must meet certain health requirements for temporary entry to Australia.

These medical examinations and x-rays are conducted by specific panel doctors chosen by Immigration. If you do not do a health examination or do not meet the requirements for the exam, this could be the reason your visa was refused."

"Failed to meet the Character requirements
You may have been refused if you as the applicant do not pass the character requirements for the visa.

You may not pass the character test if:
...You have been associated with people or groups that Immigration suspects of being involved in criminal activities,..."
Your... general conduct is of concern to Immigration, or Immigration is concerned that while you are in Australia, there is a high risk that you may: be involved in criminal conduct, harass, molest, intimidate or stalk another person, vilify part of the Australian community, incite discord in the Australian community, or represent a danger to the Australian community."

See:http://onederland.com.au/why-australian-partner-visa-may-get-refused-or-denied/
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 8 December 2018 4:56:10 PM
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Is Mise,

Why don't you go back and read what I wrote
and try to understand what was being said.
It has nothing to do with the points you've raised.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 8 December 2018 5:12:05 PM
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cont'd ...

BTW: regarding religious holidays?

I've just read an article by Benjamin Law who sums
things up beautifully. He writes:

"I have no problem with celebrating and honouring
religious holidays. It respects the majority of
Australians who identify as Christian and it
educates the non-religious about world beliefs.
But why stop at Easter and Christmas? In our
cities especially - with their Muslim, Jewish,
Buddhist, and Hindu communities - wouldn't it
make sense to celebrate and learn about those
cultures as well?

Imagine what would happen in Australia, the land
of the public holiday - if we celebrated - Rosh Hashanah,
Yom Kippur, Islamic holidays of Eid al Adha and Eid al Fitr,
and the Hindu - Diwali. My guess? Suddenly more
tolerant Aussies!"
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 8 December 2018 5:36:53 PM
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Foxy,

I did read it and

"This means that nobody is
treated differently from anybody else because
of their race, ethnicity or country of origin,
because of their age, gender, marital status,
or DISABILITY [my upper case], or because of their political
or religious beliefs."

The truth is the Government can refuse entry to anyone at any time and can hide the reasons behind the cloak of "National Security".

Public holidays abound that are based on religious law; we should do away with them in a secular society.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 8 December 2018 6:17:47 PM
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Is Mise,

We're talking about religion. There are of course other criteria
that the government uses - such as criminal records, health,
character, and so on to assess someone's suitability. However
the topic of this discussion is religion and I am pleased
that you agree that in a secular society such as ours the
laws do need to be obeyed by everyone.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 8 December 2018 6:35:46 PM
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You do not dismiss ISSY, just on a flick of the wrist.
He eludes to very real points which, BTW, do relate to your points, just not the answers you wanted displayed.
My brother-in-law was high up in immigration and he would echo what ISSY has highlighted.
The dept does not just 'rubber stamp' passports, if you watch any of the 'Border Protection' series on TV, you would not have made the assertions you did and you would have agreed with ISSY.

Foxy, one of the reasons I say you or your comments are 'dangerous', is that you refuse to see the trees for the Forrest.
When those of us speak cautiously about Muslims, you appear to take offence.
The reason we speak cautiously is because this particular group (don't forget, we don't know who they are,) believe in, or follow a faith and, I say cult, that has openly, verbally, written and acted out the wishes of their founder, to kill and destroy the 'infidels'.
Now as much as you may want to turn the other cheek, so would we all, no-one wants to have to live in fear, but I'll tell you what, my fine naive little flower, what they preach is proven, what you assert is fiction.
So to put you back in the box again, we already celebrate all the religions that reside here in Auss, so don't go preaching some story about how wonderful it would be if we celebrated other religions.
We ALREADY DO!
NONE of them told us to remove OUR religious figures because they were offensive.
Offensive?
Why you insist on taking this deflective stance to make irrelevant points is beyond me.
We are pointing the finger at one, ONE mob, not all migrants.
Stop twisting people's words and the point they are trying to make.
You make yourself and your comments irrelevant by doing what you just did.
I think the reason I get my tits in a knot, is because, your writing this stuff gives people the wrong story or impression, and so they go away with the wrong idea.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 8 December 2018 6:55:28 PM
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ALTRAV,

Only very limited minds can declare their opinions
to be a certainty or a truth.

Therefore to argue with someone like you, who has renounced
the use and authority of reason and whose philosophy
consists in holding the opinions of others in
contempt, is like administering medicine to the
dead, or endeavouring to convert an atheist by
scripture.

There is no point to it.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 9 December 2018 9:36:10 AM
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//Public holidays abound that are based on religious law; we should do away with them in a secular society.//

Bah humbug, you old Grinch.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 9 December 2018 9:43:58 AM
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Foxy, try again, I have a very open mind, it is you who has a limited mind, as you refuse to think beyond the very narrow boundaries of your beliefs, which are restricted to your unrealistic, simplistic take on life and people in general.
You would implode, emotionally, if you ever allowed yourself to extract your head out of your books for a moment and put the same effort into going outside amongst 'real' people and experiencing the 'real' world.
You would go into shock.
I know my 'comments' are based on truth, I leave the 'opinions' to you and your mates.
Not a salient point between you.
Foxy, again you have the wrong end of the bull.
If you do actually read my comments, you know you just made another furphy, by suggesting I 'renounced the use of authority and reason'.
As for 'holding the opinions of others in contempt'.
That much at least, we agree, because if the 'others' opinion is flawed, and most 'opinions' are, then I counter with logic as to why.
It appears that some commentors believe that the act of giving an opinion precludes them from quoting a fact, because it is only an opinion and that means they can say whatever they think, true or not.
I have always practiced and preached, common sense and reason, and you know this, so if I argue against something, it is justified.
An opinion is a waste of time, if your going to comment, at least make it something that is realistic in expectation, because honestly, your cred is fading with these incessant pointless, endless rants which carry no valid point or weight.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 9 December 2018 10:42:34 AM
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ALTRAV,

The ego is what drives you.

Self-praise is the first sign of insecurity.

In my opinion anyone who claims to speak
"the truth" is probably talking out of the
wrong end, anyway.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 9 December 2018 6:08:52 PM
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ALTRAV,

You claim to post only the truth, but in reality you also are only posting your opinion.
Mind you, quite a lot of what you post may have some essence in truth, but in putting all Muslims in one basket you reveal a bias - justly or no - and hence, opinion.

Foxy,

Great to see you keeping on keeping on.
I have ignored OLO for quite a while, mostly because so many only spruik bigotry or narrow-mindedness or thoughtless provocation, trolling or fishing (phishing?), or just plain rubbish. Or because I have simply had no interest in the subject matter(s) being discussed.

However, on the topic (as it has veered) I would not be in favour of adding more religious holidays to the Aus agenda.
As for the rest, well, we want more recent 'arrivals' to fit in as far as possible (but not necessarily to become 'ocker'), so, no need to 'rock the boat' by unessential pandering, in my view.

Christmas, Easter ok, because they are part of the Aus culture - a bit like Aus Day, Labour Day and the Queen's Birthday - but one day, with advances in multiculturalism, some of these may also go the way of the Dodo, or of the 'Our Father' recital in various quarters.

On the actual article, I think the authors have it right - that Tas has it right on discrimination in schools, and that Scomo and The Coalition should listen, pay heed, and stop all the floundering.
The Fed Gov I feel has gotten into a 'minority' position for a reason - or reasons - and need to get back on track post-haste, before the baby goes out with the bath-water. (Have I shown my political bias here?)
(TBCont'd:)
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 9 December 2018 10:54:43 PM
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Continuing:

My view on discrimination: If a teacher cannot fit in to the culture of the relevant school, then they shouldn't be there. And, teachers should be trained in gender-acceptance, and in ways to diffuse and dispel any incidence(s) of gender bias in their classroom and school.
As for students, there should be no gender bias by the school, teachers, student body or school admin or culture, and it must be up to the school, admin and teachers to ensure this is the case.
Similarly, bullying must be outlawed; just as we would hope to get rid of domestic abuse - in all its forms and guises (in respect of both of these forms of despicable and unacceptable behaviour).

Anyhow, have a Merry Christmas (or, Season's Greetings if you prefer).

(I'd also like to see detention centres closed, children enjoying a safe, happy and constructive life with their families, and for all the world's psychological problems, confusions and delusions cured - and an end to violence, illness, disease and climate change.) Blimey!
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 9 December 2018 10:54:52 PM
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Is no one prepared to defend the right of the Vegetarian Society of Australia to expel members who advocate the eating of meat?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 10 December 2018 8:37:22 AM
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Dear Saltpetre,

Welcome back.

Lovely to see you posting again.

I get the impression that all this fuss about religion
is a storm in a teacup. I don't know of any private
schools that discriminate against teachers or students.
I'm not aware of any of them passing judgement on
sexual orientation or gender. I think that these
issues are unfortunately being politicised. However having
said that - I do believe that religious schools, because
they do receive government funding - should not be exempt
from following the same anti-discrimination laws as the
rest of our society. We are all supposed to be treated
equally under the law.

I guess we shall have to wait and see what the government
decides regarding this issue. And, we need to ask ourselves,
where will it stop if we allow religions to be exempted
and be allowed to discriminate. Will then professions and other
institutions be
allowed to discriminate against people because of their
sexual orientation and gender? Such as against
people in the police force, in the military, in our
defence forces, and so on. Will teachers and doctors, and even
our clergy, be allowed to be treated differently - because of
someone's beliefs?
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 10 December 2018 9:16:15 AM
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Dear Foxy,

«I get the impression that all this fuss about religion is a storm in a teacup.»

The issue of sexual-orientation-based discrimination is a storm in a teacup, but the fuss about religion is not. The sexual-orientation thing is merely used as a test-case to see how far the religious can be pushed and persecuted.

«I do believe that religious schools, because they do receive government funding - should not be exempt»

And I do believe that all green tooth-fairies must be detained and tortured.

You see, just as there are no green tooth-fairies, there are no religious schools that receive government funding: isn't it written in the bible and in every other religion's scripture, "thou shalt not steal"? so if a school accepts such stolen funds from government, as all government money is essentially stolen, then it cannot be religious, even if it so claims!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 10 December 2018 9:43:34 AM
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Yuyutsu,

All Australians are free to follow any religion they
choose, so long as its practices do not break any
Australian laws. All Australians are equal under the
law. This means that nobody should be treated
differently from anybody else. This is not an attack
on religion as you infer. It is simply ensuring that all
people will be treated equally under the law.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:23:35 AM
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Is Mise,

People in this country are
free to try and advocate for whatever cause
they like - be it religious or any other.
In our Parliamentary democracy Australians
participate in how the country is run and
how Australian society is represented. Through
regular elections and through open parliamentary
debate, governments are accountable to all
Australians. Elected parliamentarians are the
only bodies able to make our laws - therefore
anyone who wishes changes to be made - is
free to try to do so.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:34:58 AM
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Foxy do you really think you would find a homosexual teaching in a Muslim school?
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 10 December 2018 11:24:56 AM
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Yuyutsu I think your'e over-reaching.
Funding is one thing, managing is another.
Unless the funds come with a caveat that the school must' accept everyone, then the school must abide by it's own code of conduct and ethos.
Sure if you start making foolish, untested or unreasonable laws, you will find yourself exactly where we are now.
It is not unreasonable for a religious institution which preaches a particular doctrine, to up-hold such teachings, otherwise it is a sham, just like society and the public in general.
This stupid act of legalising queers, was NEVER going to fly.
It is divisive, and it now seems that, that was the intention all along.
I wonder is someone attempting to 'divide and conquer'?
If people want to see an abolition of religion's and cult's, fine, but watch out, you won't like what will follow.
Religion is the stuff that keeps us safe and free of many bad things today and in the past.
In fact, religion is the 'law' we should take some cue's from.
Sure there are some pretty bad things in the Bible's, but if we are truly more intelligent than we were 2000 yrs ago, I would like to think we can weed out the bad bits.
Or maybe we're not smarter than our predecessors, in which case, let it be.
Personally I refute any acknowledgement of anyone or anything which smacks of personal ingratiation and immaturity, which this post overly smacks of.
The amount of leeway and preferential treatment given to minorities, everywhere, is unconscionable, and discriminating against the majority.
I'm all for accommodating people with dis-abilities such as 'ACROD', these clearly make sense, but as for these other queer based, weird laws, un-acceptable!
So if a religion preaches that being queer is a bad thing or should be condemned, so be it, it is NO business of govt or non-believers to have an opinion on the topic, and if you must comment, keep it amongst yourselves, in between the beers and the bullsh!t, it is religious business, so but out all of you ignorant, arrogant, do-goody nancys.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 10 December 2018 11:42:02 AM
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Foxy,

"All Australians are equal under the
law."

Are you still pushing that barrow?

Tell it to some Aboriginal girl who has just entered puberty and has been given to one of the "Old Men" of the tribe.

"People in this country are
free to try and advocate for whatever cause
they like - be it religious or any other"

But not without penalty if what they advocate is against the teachings of the group to which they belong.

How about a Salvation Army Officer who openly advocates Catholicism, would the Salvos be justified in kicking him/her out?

Would the Country Women's Assn be justified in kicking out a member who was found to be of the male gender?

Or the War Widow's Guild of Australia as they choose their members on gender and marital status.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 10 December 2018 12:15:47 PM
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Foxy, again you preach of the way things should/could be.
You know very well, things are not as you contend.
Just look around, and take note of what IS going on, not what you feel should be going on.
You keep pounding away at assumptions that the people's wishes are enacted into law via the parliament.
Some, very, very few are, and the ones that are, become law because of a very annoying, vocal and active group of lobbyists and cause pushers, which the majority of the population couldn't give a toss about, and are too busy working and believing that their vote will do the right thing, and so it doesn't as we are continually seeing.
Unfortunately, in the main, the laws being passed are not in the majority's interest.
Even though I give religious institutions 'carte blanche', I must admit being uncomfortable and torn over the idea that if we are to let religion go about it's business, what do we do with the ones that actively preach the killing of infidels, to name the most confounding one of all.
You see this is why state and religion can never be linked, and I know that if that were the case, what do we do with such preachings.
The answer unfortunately requires politicians with stones the size of footballs and titanium for skin.
As unthinkable as it may seem to some, the answer is to not allow people who, well in advance, tell you they have been 'groomed' by their religion to kill you.
Whether they do or not, is irrelevant, because to find out someone has to die.
I know it's extreme, but so is getting killed for no reason, extreme and senseless.
No I'm sorry but passing judgement on a few queers and selfish nancys is not the topic we should be commenting on, and yet here we are
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 10 December 2018 12:33:42 PM
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Dear Foxy,

«All Australians are free to follow any religion they choose»
«All Australians are equal under the law»

By the time one graduates from kindy, one should be able to expose and refute such propaganda slogans.
Do you also still believe that "Coke adds life" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGCHY3o3O_g)?

---

Dear ALTRAV,

«Funding is one thing, managing is another.»

Yes, but they are connected: the patron(s) appoint the managers and the managers are reportable to the patron(s).

Patrons may place any caveats they like over the use of their money and even the most foolish caveats must be followed by those who accept it: it could perhaps be "every morning you must hop on one foot around the school-yard 3 times singing `I'm a rooster`" - if you accept the money then you must also accept the conditions. The honourable choice of course, is to refuse the money!

«It is not unreasonable for a religious institution which preaches a particular doctrine, to up-hold such teachings»

Definitely!

But it is unreasonable for a religious institution to accept tainted stolen money from the filthy secular state.

«It is divisive»

Socially perhaps, but I don't find there any religious concerns.

«If people want to see an abolition of religion's and cult's, fine, but...»

No, it is NOT fine. Religion is the sole purpose for which we wear human bodies and come to the world. We are here to reach God, not to form societies and such. Having a society may help this purpose, or hinder it, so we must struggle that it does only the former.

«Sure there are some pretty bad things in the Bible's»

Are you referring to "thou shalt not steal"? I believe it to be good and true as ever!

Government obtains money by taking it from people without asking for their permission. If you partake of such money, then that makes you a thief yourself. If a so-called "religious" institution accepts such money, then it is not truly religious because it has no respect for the bible or whatever other scriptures it presumably teaches.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 10 December 2018 1:04:46 PM
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Yuyutsu, whoa, calm down, I'm on your side, maybe I did not make myself clear enough, sorry.
Look I agree with you, but a suggestion, even though I understand your take on the money being tainted or 'stolen' as you contend, I would not push that one, at all because that same money goes towards doing a lot of good.
What I would highlight is the fact that people have strayed so far from knowing what is right and what is wrong, that there-in lies our demise.
Every book of religion promotes things which are fundamentally out of step with our times, the basics are still relevant.
The problem is that people want to cherry pick the good bits and ignore the bits they don't like.
This is where it gets messy.
I have always preached that we should base our laws and culture around the ten commandments, as they are rules, not religious in any way, just rules, in which case they can easily be adopted by anyone, christian or not.
What is oppressive is having to pray five times a day.
I think we all get my meaning.
As to whether religions have the right to judge on sexual orientation or gender identity?
HELL YES!
People have to learn to differentiate between state and religion, and realise that either the law, which is local, is wrong, or whether religion, which is universal, is wrong.
It's a no-brainer, obviously church wins every time.
Now if the church is asking for exemptions for such things as killing infidels because it is in their holy book and therefore just one of the many teachings of Mohamed, then obviously any thinking man can answer that, it is black and white.
On the other hand anything to do with being anything but man or woman is not even on the colour chart and should be relegated to the rubbish bin, not in parliament and certainly not in any teaching institutions.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 10 December 2018 1:42:18 PM
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With the treatment of kids by the major religions, why would anybody send their kids to a religious school?

If Australia, collectively, had any sense they would ban all religious schools, bus kids to various schools to mix up the ethnic mix, ban all religious symbolism at schools and in public except on whatever day of the week their diety demanded attendance. In twenty years the ethnic/religious hostility nonsense would be but a fading memory.
Posted by petere, Monday, 10 December 2018 1:51:30 PM
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petere, with your optimism and unrealistic view on life and human nature, you should join the Foxy brigade.
Your opinion if I am getting it right, sounds wonderful, now just try to implement it.
Most of the problems of the world are historical and religious.
What other conflicts can you think of that have been going on for thousands of years?
Even if I toned it down a bit, it would still be hundreds, of years, and do you honestly believe everything will be hunky dory in, forget twenty, let's say, forty years?
Sorry petere, it isn't that simple.
The absolute stupidity of these people and by extension, this govt, is that in fear of becoming unpopular, they allowed waring factions to migrate, not one braniac thought to write a single note about the fact that when they arrived they would keep fighting, and that in fact some of them considered us also as the enemy.
How smart are this lot?
So it is that there must be exemptions for religions, but we must also decide how much compromise we are willing to entertain.
That is a much harder question.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 10 December 2018 2:12:12 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

«I'm on your side»

I am on the side of religion and God as my perspective is spiritual, not social: which side are you on?

Religion teaches that one ought to place God in the driver's seat, rather than one's sexual passions, whatever they may happen to be, so their specifics should not matter anyway.

«I would not push that one, at all because that same money goes towards doing a lot of good.»

Religion is always about what YOU do and don't, not about others, so even if others do good things with this tainted money, YOU still ought not be a thief, not even a "good thief".

«Every book of religion promotes things which are fundamentally out of step with our times»

So has it not occurred to you that something is deeply wrong with our times?

«we should base our laws and culture around the ten commandments, as they are rules, not religious»

I can't see what else these commandments are, but religious. However, some of them are only relevant and intended for the Jewish religion, such as "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage": No other people were brought out of Egypt.

«What is oppressive is having to pray five times a day.»

Yes, if you HAVE to - how possibly can one pray with a pure heart when forced? But in itself, praying five times a day is a wonderful religious practice. Christians used to pray seven times a day (only a few monasteries still keep this tradition today)!

«On the other hand anything to do with being anything but man or woman is not even on the colour chart»

Sorry, but this does not agree with my religious faith. I firmly believe that we are neither men nor women (or indeed human). It's best to never fuss about such insignificant attributes of our bodies and instead focus on our divine common essence.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 10 December 2018 2:53:34 PM
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Dear Foxy,

«This is not an attack on religion as you infer.»

There you go - just read Petere's cruel post above: they want to annihilate religion. Nothing to do with sexual orientation, nothing to do with the welfare of children, these are just pretexts - they would just do anything they can to prevent religion being passed to the next generations, so it is forgotten.

Nevertheless, God will prevail!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 10 December 2018 2:56:37 PM
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Yuyutsu writes Monday, 10 December 2018 1:04:46 PM P.7

" Religion is the sole purpose for which we wear human bodies and come to the world. We are here to reach God,"

You may think it impresses some readers to be so affirmative of your beliefs that its "truth" somehow gains credibility. You are wrong. Your assertion is nothing more than opinion. It pleases you and comforts you to so believe, but a significant number among Earth's population find no such solace in the supernatural and the magical. In fact they view it as comical that mortification of the flesh and the eschewing of mundane pleasures can arouse euphoria in any sane human.

«Sure there are some pretty bad things in the Bible's»

Your response: "Are you referring to "thou shalt not steal"? I believe it to be good and true as ever!"

It seems to me that you see a flippant and deliberate perversity as an effective argument. Perhaps you have good reason to believe so and if this is the case, a brief explanation would dispel the apparent negativity that your question arouses.

It is undeniable that there are some pretty bad things in the bible. They are widely known and are 100% widely condemned. It should not be necessary to present a list to one of your acknowledged erudition in matters spiritual and sacred. Are the scriptures the recording of the deity's inerrant word breathed through chosen scribes and made into the written word? Or are they metaphor selectively used to mask errancy?
Posted by Pogi, Monday, 10 December 2018 3:36:17 PM
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petere,

I believe Henry Parks, Premier of NSW and Famous Womaniser, tried banning religious schools or at least making it impossible for them to survive, that was back around the 1890s; seems that it didn't work.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 10 December 2018 5:33:42 PM
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'I believe Henry Parks, Premier of NSW and Famous Womaniser, tried banning religious schools or at least making it impossible for them to survive, that was back around the 1890s; seems that it didn't work.'

imagine how much dumber the country would be if he was successful. You would have country full of getup clowns.
Posted by runner, Monday, 10 December 2018 9:54:44 PM
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Hasbeen,

You asked me if I could see a gay teacher at an Islamic
school?

It may come as a surprise to you but gay people exist
everywhere. SBS News recently spoke to one current
teacher at an Islamic school in Melbourne on the
condition of anonymity, for both her and the school.
She believed she would lose her job if management
discovered she was a lesbian. It was a question of -
Don't ask, don't tell. Teachers teach Maths,
not "gay math"s. The same as gay doctors practice
medicine not "gay medicine". And so on.

Anyway regarding gay teachers in private schools -
I suspect that's the norm - it is a question of
don't ask, don't tell - unless the laws are changed
from what they currently are.

Muslim society is still by and large strongly patriarchal.
Patriarchy, by its nature extols masculinity. There's
no sin in appreciating male beauty. Apparently Muslim
societies have often acknowledged male relationships,
even if they disapproved. An old joke in Afghanistan
is that birds fly over Kandahar with one wing held
under their tail - as a precaution. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 10:23:56 AM
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//do you really think you would find a homosexual teaching in a Muslim school?//

Pretty sure Hasbeen is one of those people who believe homosexuality is a Western invention from the latter half of the 20th century. I suppose one could try to correct him, but this is Hasbeen we're talking about so there seems little point.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 5:42:05 PM
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Toni,

Tell us do you really think you would find a homosexual teaching in a Muslim school?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 7:44:09 PM
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People into moral perversion teaching kids and preaching to others. Dear oh dear! What a sick generation.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 8:58:14 PM
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runner,

Yes, religious schools have a lot to answer.
As not only the victims of child sexual abuse
can testify but all the people who are leaving
and have left the institutions in droves.
Hatred, brainwashing,
judgement of others, discrimination, no longer
works in this day and age. People expect better.
Just as they do of their politicians.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 9:51:04 PM
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Oh Foxy you call paedophile wrong. Amazing. I wonder where you got your moral base. btw a large chunk of these paedophile priests were homosexuals. Oh that does not fit your narrative.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 10:44:27 PM
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Foxy, 'some' people, might 'expect it', I;m sure but the truth is 'most' people are skeptical and wary.
As was said when the YES vote happened, 'some' people said it was final and the end of a long battle.
Most people said, it was only the beginning of an even longer and more protracted battle, as we have been witnessing from the very first day.
This topic is only one of many that will be the undoing of this unconscionable, disastrous YES decision.
Foxy, again you try to pull the wool over the plebs eyes.
Thankfully, I am not one.
I've caught you out again, as if it was hard.
All I have to do is wait and sure enough, like clockwork, you do not disappoint.
You were asked if we would/could see a queer at an Islamic school?
Fine, but your answer was typically deflective, or evasive.
You responded with; 'SBS spoke to a current teacher only on the condition of anonymity for her and the school'.
This is where I call you an appropriate offensive name, for lying in a vane and fruitless attempt at trying to make your point.
As this is a typical trait for you and the left, I won't need to say what needs to be said.
Let those who know and understand what I'm talking about judge you, and of course your comments.
In case you try to deflect and evade further, unbeknown to you, hidden in your response was the affirmation of the question asked of you, in the form of the teacher and school seeking/demanding?, anonymity.
If the topic is not controversial, then there is no need to put conditions on the interview.
And so there it is, let the readers decide, and there can only be one decision.
She did not want to be outed, and if the school was complicit, then it too did not want to risk the consequences of hiring a queer.
We would never hear of the consequences, but they are a given.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 10:46:48 PM
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Dear Foxy,

«Yes, religious schools have a lot to answer.»

Can ghosts be answerable?

As I mentioned on page 6 (and may I assume that your silence means that you agree?), there are no religious schools in existence, at least not in Australia, since to the best of my knowledge, all schools, despite calling themselves "private" and "religious", accept government alms. Seriously, how can a Christian/Jewish school claim to be religious while breaking the eighth commandment?

«...but all the people who are leaving and have left the institutions in droves.»

Has it occurred to you that they might be leaving because those institutions are not truly religious, thus fail to provide their spiritual needs?

«Hatred, brainwashing, judgement of others, discrimination, no longer works in this day and age.»

What has this day and age to do with it - have they ever worked? hasn't Jesus taught the same 2000 years ago?

«People expect better. Just as they do of their politicians.»

Expect anything from politicians? Really? From those predators? If you see a politician, the best thing you can do is cower, cross to the other side of the street and hope they didn't see you.

---

Dear Pogi,

Before jumping in, can you bother reading the previous posts to learn about the context of the conversation?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 11:27:44 PM
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runner,

Thank You for proving my point about religion
having a lot to answer. Your behaviour as a self-
proclaimed Christian -
is exactly why the religious have no right to
judgement. You should follow the teachings of
Christ instead of preaching hate and discrimination:

Love your neighbour as yourself (Mark 12:31)

Honour one another above yourselves (Romans 12:10)

My command is this: Love each other as I have
loved you (John 15:12)

Do to others as you would have them do to you
(Luke 6:31)
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:03:29 PM
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ALTRAV and Yuyutsu,

Given how many Religious Institutions, many of them
schools, were raised in the Royal Commission as having
a "do nothing" approach to child sexual abuse, the
temerity of taking action on this issue borders on
the breathtaking.

runner,

BTW: There's a big difference between pedophilia and
homosexuality. And implying that homosexual clergy
abuse children sexually is not true.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:25:27 PM
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ALTRAV,

What I was asked by Hasbeen was - would I see any
homosexuals in Islamic schools? I answered the
question. Homosexuals exist everywhere. And I gave
the SBS News interview of the teacher in
Melbourne. I was not asked whether the teacher
would admit to being homosexual at her school.
Because as I pointed out, under the current
circumstances this was not possible.

You rants against me are just that. Rants. You
need to lift the bar in your posts, difficult as
that may be to do especially if you
want people to respond. Otherwise you shall be
ignored.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:39:01 PM
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Dear Foxy,

By your silence I should assume that you agree with what I wrote so far.

«Given how many Religious Institutions, many of them schools, were raised in the Royal Commission as having a "do nothing" approach to child sexual abuse»

The question stands: are those institutions truly religious?

Anyone could claim to be religious, in fact anyone could also claim to be a rooster, but are they, just because they say so?

Now if an institution was indeed religious, then I wouldn't expect it to hand its people over to evil secular authorities. Yes, they could and should act to protect the children and have many other avenues to address child sexual abuse, but handing offenders to the secular state should not be one of them.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:52:20 PM
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Foxy, could you please elaborate as to runners error, or as you say, he is 'wrong', or which part of his comment/s is/are wrong?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 1:38:01 PM
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Foxy, apologies, I was writing the previous answer and only noticed yours when I posted.
I disagree with you obviously, but more importantly, if the question of queers being acceptable in a teaching come pseudo, institution that 'preaches' the destruction of queers, how can you argue that Islamic schools accept queers?
As you yourself said, 'don't ask, don't tell'.
It's truly amasing how you 'gloss over' the obvious, or simply ignore it.
If being queer in an Islamic school was OK they would not need to hide that fact, so then, 'NO', queers are not acceptable in an Islamic school.
And BTW it behooves you to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
This is a caveat of the law, not religion.
Your quib about teachers teaching maths, not queer maths, is a very straw man comment.
Disappointing.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 2:10:00 PM
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Now what could we learn from the god deniers?

- guilt free baby killing
- sleep with as many people of the same sex or otherwise as possible
- how to avoid disease while being immoral
- once full of regrets and guilt join the metoo movement
- take you kids to mardigras for all the perverts to look at
-be dumb enough to ask why drug taking and mental health is on steroids
- label all good fathers and husbands misogynist
- bang on about 50 year old abuse cases while ignoring whats happening under their noses among the Indigeneous.

Yep the regressives are sure experts at virtue signalling. Not content they want to putrify the minds of kids even denying them of their biological sexuality. Yep welcome to 2018.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 3:08:21 PM
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Runner, well said, the shame of it all is that the regressive left have a very childlike view on life.
In some circles it might be considered, sweet or cute, but in the real world it is called a lie.
I find this too-ing and fro-ing more of a comedy than any serious attempt at trying to instill some semblance of maturity, reason or common sense in these poor deluded souls.
After-all, as an example, how do you convince a Muslim that there are sections of the Koran that, by today's standards, are no longer relevant practiced or acceptable.
Well that's about on a par with some on OLO.
Still, onward and upward.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 5:31:54 PM
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//Tell us do you really think you would find a homosexual teaching in a Muslim school?//

Me find a homosexual teaching in a Muslim school? No, that seems unlikely, because I've no reason to go looking and that somewhat diminishes my chances of finding.

Nevertheless, I consider it extremely likely, to the point of being almost certain, that there are homosexuals teaching in Muslim schools.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 6:02:33 PM
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Foxy,

"And implying that homosexual clergy
abuse children sexually is not true"

The predominance seems to be boys abused by men, therefore the male clergy that abuse male children are homosexual.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 10:00:52 PM
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ALTRAV,

A couple of corrections:

1) I did not argue that Islamic schools accept gays.
2) I did not "gloss over" anything. Or ignored
anything.

What I did do was answer Hasbeen's specific question:
"Foxy do you really think you would find a homosexual
teaching in a Muslim school?"

The answer was - yes. Loud and clear.

You stated that the Quran was not relevant, practiced, or
acceptable to today's standards. And the Bible is?
How well do you know either? And you agree with what our
resident self-proclaimed Christian runner posts -
He's a good example of Christianity is he?

runner,

With people like you at the helm - no wonder the churches
are empty. I shall pray for you. (After all Christmas is
just around the corner).
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 10:08:15 PM
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'runner,

With people like you at the helm - no wonder the churches
are empty. I shall pray for you. (After all Christmas is
just around the corner).'

cheap lazy insults Foxy!
Posted by runner, Thursday, 13 December 2018 1:47:31 PM
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runner,

No, not insults. Facts.

You, on this forum set the example with
cheap lazy insults all in the name of
religion.
Shame on you!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 1:53:09 PM
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runner,

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what
judgement ye judge ye shall be judged: and
with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote
that is in they brother's eye, but considered not
the beam that is in thine own eye?

(Sermon on the Mount. Matthew, Chapter 7, 1-5)
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 2:09:49 PM
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Foxy, to counter your corrections;
You needed not argue if 'Islamic schools accepted gays' or not, because by their own admission they have.
Although I don't think it happened with open arms.
It may have been discovered later and possibly as you put it, don't ask, don't tell, would have come into play.
When the teacher was first accepted, it would not have been known to the school, otherwise they absolutely should not have hired her, as it would put the school in an untenable situation, and clearly in direct contrast/conflict with the teachings of the Koran.
I think it was discovered later and because by that stage there was now a rapport between the principal and the teacher, it was left alone, to be dealt with if and when it ever became known.
And that is the real reason why they sought anonymity for the teacher and the school.
Surely even you can imagine the outcry and the enormous furore that would be bestowed upon the school, it's principal and let's not even think about what would happen to the teacher, if this information became known to the Muslim public/parents.
The stupidity of journo's, I can only imagine what ensued following the airing of that SBS segment.
So what Hasbeen meant was, 'can you see a queer being hired and therefore teaching in an Islamic school?
The correct answer NO!
Secondly, you DID 'gloss over' the fact that even though there was a queer working at this Islamic school, you 'glossed over' the fact that they needed to hide that fact from EVERYONE, as it would not be well received by those who ultimately run the school.
Foxy, it is in clear violation of the schools teachings.
Are you calling everyone involved, including the Islamic school board or governors, liars and hypocrites?
I'd say, Hasbeen needn't have asked the question, even I knew the answer, and I know you did too, Foxy.
I don't know why you bother, some things out there will never change, no matter how many times you keep saying they will or have.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 13 December 2018 6:17:03 PM
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You, on this forum set the example with
cheap lazy insults all in the name of
religion.
Shame on yo

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what
judgement ye judge ye shall be judged: and
with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote
that is in they brother's eye, but considered not
the beam that is in thine own eye? set the example with
cheap lazy insults all in the name of
religion.
Shame on you!

Oh if you were not so blind Foxy.

'
Posted by runner, Thursday, 13 December 2018 10:24:42 PM
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To Foxy,

You said on Tuesday, 11 December 2018 9:51:04 PM

<<Yes, religious schools have a lot to answer.
As not only the victims of child sexual abuse
can testify but all the people who are leaving
and have left the institutions in droves.
Hatred, brainwashing,
judgement of others, discrimination, no longer
works in this day and age. People expect better.
Just as they do of their politicians.>>

Based on this comment I have a question for you or anyone else who has an answer.

Where are the examples of religous schools brainwashing their students (or religions brainwashing in general), and what is the distinction between that and teaching as a general rule? If brainwashing is putting an unsupported idea into students or people's head, then politics as a whole should be looked into much more for brainwashing then religion is for brainwashing.

None the less if there are examples of brainwashing, and these examples are real enough to stand against then we should stand against it. Regardless if it is from a religion, a college, or a political lobby. Not against going to college, going to church (or other place of worship), nor against being involved in politics. Just to stand against that example, that specific lobbyist, that school, program, or teacher, or that specific church or pastor.

I see too much philosophical arguments on brainwashing to support or harm certain arguments. But are there any examples of this or is that ignored or they not even there? (A lie for the sake of strengthing an argument)?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 14 December 2018 4:57:26 AM
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NNS,

Perhaps the following will help:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201408/does-christianity-harm-children
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 14 December 2018 10:03:32 AM
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ALTRAV,

You are arguing with yourself.

I answered Hasbeen's question to me.

runner,

Wrong is wrong no matter how you try to rationalise
your behaviour.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 14 December 2018 10:19:43 AM
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Foxy, you don't get to dismiss me simply because you don't want to admit that my proposition is a true account of the facts regarding the situation with the school and the teacher.
I reject your egoistical, self ingratiating, patronising response.
By the dismissive wave of your hand and associated irreverence, says more about you than you would like people to know.
If you are truly not the snob you have just demonstrated, I, and others are expecting an answer to my take on the question Hasbeen put to you.
If you want to be taken seriously, I would suggest a response or you will leave yourself open to being regarded as one who is afraid to be wrong, and so it is easier to mock and run than respond and lose.
Losing a point or getting a detail wrong is quite normal so do not feel badly about losing this one to Hasbeen, because he is right.
As for your link:
This guy is a moron.
He set his child up to rebuke Christianity, only because he is a an atheist pig.
If he TRULY wanted to teach his kid about Christianity, he should have sat her down or gotten someone well versed on the topic, to explain it to her.
What an idiot.
Foxy shame on you for selecting a moron and for even giving his diatribe any cred, let alone make it a link.
I'll bet the prick has never taken her to a 'house of horrors' at the circus or fair, because that is precisely what he just did.
He is an unfit father and if that's his level of parenting, I'd be the first one to rip that child out of that home.
What an evil ugly little man, then he has the gall to write about it as if he had just discovered the cure for cancer.
What he did was puerile and unforgivable, and I truly hope she NEVER forgives him.
She has not only been scarred for life, against religion, but scarred for life, in general.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 14 December 2018 4:08:05 PM
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ALTRAV,

What I posted to Not-Now-Soon, was in reply to his
question concerning examples of religious brainwashing.
I gave a link that showed what someone had experienced,
as he asked.
It had nothing to do with you.
You were under no obligation to read it.
Do try to have an intelligent discussion, and keep
emotion out of it. Rants are a turn off.
You remind me of a big gorilla in a zoo - beating his
chest because he doesn't get his way. Grow up!

NNS,

Here is another link that may be of interest.
It again is from what someone has experienced,
regarding religious brainwashing:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-was-radicalised-at-my-catholic-school-thats-why-birminghams-squalid-religious-schools-frighten-me-a6778261.html
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 14 December 2018 6:29:54 PM
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Foxy. That article isn't an example of religous brainwashing. It's an example of an atheist struggling to badly explain Christianity to his daughter, plus a short list of complaints of beliefs that he doesn't seem to understand. He even admits to how much Christianity has benifited some children instead of being a source of abuse.

What he said though that I see merit for is to be willing to discuss Christianity and it's merits or flaws openly. That said though the issues should be grounded by at least on live example of brainwashing or abuse. Otherwise is it just rally a flaw; or a misunderstood and exagegerated philosophy against the faith that person doesn't believe.

If you have an example or anyone else does of Christianity brainwashing anyone I'd like to see it. As far as I can tell no real distinction between education or brainwashing exists when comparing secular school programs and privite christian schools. Therefore the critism of brainwashing and indoctrination is holds no merit outside of select few examples of cult like movements from deranged individuals, not from Christian beliefs.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 14 December 2018 6:40:04 PM
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NNS,

There is so much on the web that you can find for
yourself regarding religious brainwashing and
various people's experiences. I will leave you to
do your own research on the subject. For me this
discussion has now run its course. I have no further wish
to continue to argue with anyone.

Take care.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 14 December 2018 6:55:08 PM
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//Therefore the critism of brainwashing and indoctrination is holds no merit outside of select few examples of cult like movements from deranged individuals, not from Christian beliefs.//

Aye, no true Scotsman would brainwash kids, only deranged individuals.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 14 December 2018 8:34:56 PM
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NNS, pleased to see you also saw through that link Foxy attempted to 'sell' you.
You also got it right otherwise we must have colluded somehow.
So it is that once again Foxy, in her vane attempt at trying to push her agenda, just keeps on falling short.
I notice an unhealthy trend by her and her compatriots.
She/they make a statement,sometimes giving a link, which never completely backs her assertions, then has a hissy fit and shuts down when we find fault in her submission.
I must get closure on Hasbeens question about Queers being hired and working in Islamic schools.
It is not possible, the koran does not allow it.
I have seen no precedent where/why the Muslim elders would allow this when it clearly contradicts the koran.
Instead of Foxy adopting a mature, middle ground she cuts and runs.
I should hope she would have no further reason to argue with anyone, because we did not set out to 'argue', with anyone,
It is clear to those of us, not on the left, that Hasbeen was right, but because she is too proud and suffers from virtue shaming, amongst other things, she has left us all in the manner she has, she has lost a lot of cred, and I'm sure a lot of followers.
This kind of attitude and lack of reason is just some more very strong reasons NO-ONE has the right to question religion on their right to preach the word of God.
Whether anyone likes it or not.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 15 December 2018 2:47:05 AM
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To Foxy.

I'm sorry but I didn't see the second link you posted before I gave my reply. So my reactions were mostly on the first article of the atheist writer taking his daughter to a catholic mission and not being able to understand or explain the religion.

To the second link, the author's Catholic teaching and being told about the fires of hell sounds closer to an example, and his talking about his conclusions joining the IRA in Ireland for the sake of Catholicism speaks of a possibility of more going on there then his example from if Catholic teacher. However his conclusion is off the mark. Hell is a hard topic, no doubt, but it is not child abuse, just frightening. Some other teachings commonly given by good parents are the consequences of kids actions. "Brush your teeth or you'll lose them and likely get ________deseise." Or the common teaching for kids to not talk to strangers and the dangers of being kidnapped. Hell is a frightening concept. But if it's real it's worth just as much a warning as staying away from strangers, or brushing your teeth. And there's where the issue falls. If it is real.

Honestly I would like to see more examples of brainwashing, because from what I can tell the accusations of indoctrination in religion have no difference to indoctrination in regular schools. It's just that instead of calling it indoctrination it's called education. Teaching kids things they probably don't want to know or see no point in studying. From math, history, geography, to the topics some parents have issues with like sex ed and teaching basically that it's ok to go out and have sex when their still young. (Just do it with protection and you've got the green light).

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 15 December 2018 4:07:16 AM
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(Continued)

However disagreeing with a topic taught in school doesn't equate to brainwashing, unless the term brainwashing itself holds no merit.

That is why I ask for examples of religious brainwashing. Because that's the repeated term that usually is placed in arguments without an active example to say "here it is, let's stand against it."

Think of it this way, if the argument of brainwashing is true and is a form of abuse, then by all means let's seek out the source and change it. But if it's not a real issue it just weakens the context it's placed in. Sex abuse and other abuses should by all right get their own focus to strengthen change in the place it occurred. Everything else in the list against religious schools (Hatred, brainwashing, judgement of others, discrimination), those don't amount to much and just weaken the arguments against religion as a whole. All a person has to say is that they weren't taught to hate or to discriminate even though they've been raised in a church or in a religious setting. It makes it sound like people are whining and looking for excuses to be against Christianity. Which when placed with a real concern like sex abuse, thestuff if the stuff that isn't justified just weakens the argument of real abuse because it's coming from someone looking for excuses to be against religion. Instead of someone who actually wants to stop a specific abuse that is occurring and has real stories to confirm it.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 15 December 2018 4:10:44 AM
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//It's just that instead of calling it indoctrination it's called education. Teaching kids things they probably don't want to know or see no point in studying. From math, history, geography//

Christ on a bike.... teaching people maths counts as indoctrination now? These Christians sure are a weird mob. Even the Westboro Baptists aren't kooky enough to print 'God Hates Maths Teachers' on their placards, but NNS isn't going to let that stop him from demonstrating just how kooky religious people can be.

Sorry, NNS, but teaching kids maths is not indoctrination. For it to be indoctrination you actually have to be teaching some sort of doctrine, not merely teaching a subject that the dim kids dislike because they find it difficult.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 15 December 2018 8:59:49 AM
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Toni, you know very well what NNS is trying to say, and by you trying to virtue shame him, does you no favour and only loses you cred.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 15 December 2018 10:44:21 AM
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NNS,

Here are two more links that you may find useful:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-teaching-children-religion-brainwashing

And -

http://theconversation.com/why-legislation-should-ban-schools-from-discriminating-against-lgbtiq-students-and-teachers-104940

ALTRAV,

A few more corrections:

1) I do not attempt to "sell" anything to anyone.
I provide information for them to make up their
own minds. In the case of NNS - I merely provided
examples of what he had asked for - which was
lived experiences of what people had gone through.

2) I am not pushing any "agenda." Merely answering
questions.

3) I do not throw "hissy fits." Reasoning works
better.

4) You should not make assumptions about people
you don't know - or their personal beliefs.

5) Nobody supports or likes an illogical and abusive
poster. Sound reasoning is what works.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 15 December 2018 10:52:55 AM
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//Toni, you know very well what NNS is trying to say//

Yes, I do, because he helpfully wrote it down for us. Look, here it is again:

//It's just that instead of calling it indoctrination it's called education. Teaching kids things they probably don't want to know or see no point in studying. From math, history, geography//

He is claiming, quite unambiguously, that teaching mathematics is equivalent to indoctrination. But he's wrong; teaching maths is not indoctrination because mathematics isn't a form of doctrine. And if you agree with him that teaching mathematics is indoctrination, you're wrong too.

And I know you're going to flip out about being told you're wrong because you hold to the quaint belief that you are incapable of error. But in this case, both you and NNS are simply incorrect. Sorry, but that's how it is.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 15 December 2018 11:13:22 AM
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//and by you trying to virtue shame him//

Huh?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 15 December 2018 11:14:41 AM
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Foxy, wrong again.
When 'sound reasoning' doesn't work, or any kind of reasoning, we are dealing with an 'unreasonable' person, by definition.
And so it is absolutely imperative to ensure that person is brought back into the realm of reason, by 'any' means.
When the 'softly-softly' approach does not work, one must resort to more aggressive measures to attempt to achieve their goal or mission.
How would we reconcile, if we gave up on something because it was too hard, on initial contact.
And so it is I am so driven, even pedantic, about conveying the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
First and foremost you must stop suggesting these links that you believe will help you make your case.
For every link you come up with I can find ten contradicting them.
They are self serving and puerile.
I know you can do better.
And finally, let others win a point every now and then.
We love you for being warm and cuddly and accommodating, but when you 'argue', yes argue with us, it's not a good look.
How about trying to see the other guys view for a change, maybe even correct him by way of suggesting that possibly he meant something else, and actually describing what you believe he really meant.
Anyway, love you, as always, and you know what they say 'you don't want to hurt the ones you love'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 15 December 2018 11:21:30 AM
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ALTRAV,

I have tried to present a balance in this discussion.

I even gave a link listing the pros and cons on this
issue.

You seem to think that unless someone agrees with you
they are wrong and you start with the insults and
name calling. As I stated earlier - that does not
work. It impresses no one.

Anyway, I have nothing further to add to this
discussion.

Enjoy your week-end.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 15 December 2018 12:18:01 PM
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Foxy

I don't know how schools will decide how to run themselves, but in my opinion if the school is doing it's job well to teach the children, and the school isn't harmful to the students, the staff, or to the community as a whole, then that school is doing fine at regulating itself. We don't need extra laws to tell schools to do what they already are doing well on their own. I don't want discrimination against teachers either, however there are other elements that go into it. One is that several religions actually are against active homosexuality. (Not just attraction but same sex with the same sex). If a religious school has the incentive to stand by their belief, they should stand by that, regardless if the laws say otherwise. Second point is that if there are jobs to teach at both a religious school and a non religious school, then it's not a restriction on a homosexual teacher to find a good a welcoming school. They shouldn't try to teach at a school that doesn't accept their choices, or try to force a school to change.

As for the link to agree or disagree poll, Thank you for trying to find middle ground on the subject. But I'll stick by what I've said. Brainwashing and indoctrination is either something that happens or it doesn't. An opinion poll isn't as good as an active example, nor does it relate to the what's really happened. I'll keep my eyes open for finding examples of abuse, but so far I really haven't found it for Christian indoctrination/brainwashing. At least not to the degree that it's argued where teaching religion is itself a form of indoctrination, brainwashing, or abuse.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 15 December 2018 7:50:05 PM
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NNS,

I understand what you are saying.

Thank You for maintaining a civil debate.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 16 December 2018 9:22:48 AM
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Foxy - welcome back.
Posted by SAINTS, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 8:39:20 PM
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Robin Banks is the former Tasmanian Anti-Discrimination Commissioner, a human rights lawyers and a PhD candidate in discrimination law at the University of Tasmania.

Anja Hilkemeijer is a lecturer in law at the University of Tasmania Law School, specialising in human rights and religious freedom.

Rodney Croome is the National Convenor of Australian Marriage Equality and was made a Member of the Order of Australia in 2003 for his gay rights advocacy. He is co-author of Why vs Why: Gay Marriage.

I wish to ask questions of the author's of this article, and seek a response from any person.

1.So there's no discrimination in religious beliefs - however a prominent Catholic person in Tas was taken to the tribunal on behalf of a person who complained that a Catholic priest/person was handing out pamphlets to his congregation regarding Catholic faith edicts during the gay marriage campaign.

2. Such person withdrew complaint. However, no one has reported any costs to the Catholic Church in defending this claim.

3. Catholic schools have NEVER kicked out a gay (or other type) of child from their school.....and wouldn't up to this day....so what's the problem?

4. Teachers when they are employed by Catholic Education sign an agreement as to teaching edits - end of story.

5. So -I ask - what is the problem?
Posted by SAINTS, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:07:59 PM
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//Catholic schools have NEVER kicked out a gay (or other type) of child from their school.....and wouldn't up to this day....so what's the problem?//

There are other denominations beyond Catholicism, and they ain't all as tolerant.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:29:20 PM
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To the authors you say -

"But our biggest concern is that federal legislation designed to give equal protection to LGBTI people in faith-based organisations may actually water-down Tasmania's gold-standard legislation.

There have been worrying public statements from members of both major parties about entrenching a positive right for schools to discriminate against teachers on the grounds of religious "ethos". "

I say - Schools have EVERY right to have teachers adhere to their "ethos". It's not about "watering down" anyone's rights, it's simply the following -

1. If you wish to be a teacher in an Islamic School - you must adhere to their tenants/"ethos".

2. If you wish to be a teacher in a Jewish School - you must adhere to their tenants/"ethos"

3. If you wish to be a teacher in a Catholic School - you must adhere to their tenants/"ethos".

Simple analogy - as a democratic society, all persons whether you are LBGTI or the other 70 plus "options" do have a place in society, as such you have no "upper" right (as a group) than any other person/citizen in our society, who aren't LGBI plus 70 plus options.
Posted by SAINTS, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:34:11 PM
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ALTRAV - you responded - to Foxy

"Foxy, wrong again.
When 'sound reasoning' doesn't work, or any kind of reasoning, we are dealing with an 'unreasonable' person, by definition.
And so it is absolutely imperative to ensure that person is brought back into the realm of reason, by 'any' means.
When the 'softly-softly' approach does not work, one must resort to more aggressive measures to attempt to achieve their goal or mission.
How would we reconcile, if we gave up on something because it was too hard, on initial contact.
And so it is I am so driven, even pedantic, about conveying the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
First and foremost you must stop suggesting these links that you believe will help you make your case.
For every link you come up with I can find ten contradicting them.
They are self serving and puerile.
I know you can do better.
And finally, let others win a point every now and then.
We love you for being warm and cuddly and accommodating, but when you 'argue', yes argue with us, it's not a good look.
How about trying to see the other guys view for a change, maybe even correct him by way of suggesting that possibly he meant something else, and actually describing what you believe he really meant.
Anyway, love you, as always, and you know what they say 'you don't want to hurt the ones you love'."

Do you "seriously" believe that was an appropriate response to "FOXY" - a strong and assertive person with own views and thoughts.

I don't know FOXY personally - but had conversations via online in the past, both on supporting and opposing opinions, however I would NEVER post a comment as above to any "family" online member.
Posted by SAINTS, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:44:59 PM
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Saints, I'm not quite sure of your position regarding your last posting, re; my response to Foxy's response.
Saint, I am a reasonable person who tolerates a lot.
Unfortunately I do not have the linguistic skills, I so dearly desire.
I also cannot stand virtue signalling or virtue shaming or any form of emotional rubbish in a debate or discussion.
There are those who push their agenda as if they represent the truth, for which I am continually attacked, yet when someone makes a comment, essentially debunking or questioning the validity of their comment, they take the moral high ground and effectively, by today's standards, assault you by ignoring tour comment and responding with further affirmation of their stance on the topic.
Saint this is the attitude of an arrogant, selfish person suffering from many social inconsistencies and short comings.
It is sickening to witness when some commentors keep telling each other how wonderful they are.
This is NOT a dating site, and there should never be such language or emotions expressed on these sites.
I do not tolerate unreasonable people.
If we are prepared to look into someones link then I believe it is a matter of course,respect and good manners for them to respond equally.
I have explained myself and my demeanor to the forum, so I believe I have been 'up front and open' with everyone.
They know I will not wear fools.
I speak the truth, not BS PC.
I do not care for the absurd stance to not offend.
If during the course of a conversation, someone is offended, it is of their doing, they can correct me if I am wrong or, if I am right they can suck it up and move on.
Anyway, Saint, if someone feels the need to offend another, it is his right and therefore quite the norm to do so.
Some people have an un-natural, un-healthy, naive view on life, that everything is rosey, this is dangerous.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 20 December 2018 1:20:56 AM
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//There are other denominations beyond Catholicism, and they ain't all as tolerant.//

Then deal with them on a case by case basis.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 20 December 2018 7:57:28 AM
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