Dear Thinkabit,

«Thus if my body was to murder someone than I'm in no way responsible. »

Your body cannot murder.

Your body can kill just as a gun or a hammer can, but no sane judge would prosecute a gun or a hammer.

Now your body is not completely detached from you because your mind has attached itself to your body while you identify yourself as your mind. Your mind interacts with your body and can influence it to a certain degree, while you can freely choose to control and train your mind to follow the straight and narrow.

The mind is like a wild horse that needs to be broken. If you fail to control your mind and your mind then causes your body to murder, then you are responsible.

The mind has no free will and is set on its long-acquired habits. If you do not intervene and leave it in automatic-mode, then it will pursue its preset goals, most often to acquire, through your body, immediate sensual pleasures, and it would do so blindly at any cost. Training the mind to change its habits, is a long and arduous project - sometimes it seems impossible, but it actually is possible.

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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You wrote :

« Hitler was correct in claiming that we are not humans, but he believed that some (like Jews) are lower than humans … »
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So do you, Yuyutsu. Like Hitler, you claim that “a person is a physical object” – which is why I protested so vigorously in my previous post. In fact, my whole post was entirely devoted to this single declaration of yours that I found particularly shocking and totally unacceptable.

But you obviously preferred to ignore it. You did not offer the slightest explanation, let alone justification.

As I already pointed out in my previous post, the only logical conclusion that one can draw from the fact that you also declare that you consider yourself, myself and other people to be God is that you consider your God to be a “physical object” (or thing) according to your own definition of us all as “persons”.

You have a double – perhaps even a triple – conflicting discourse, all versions of which are totally irreconcilable. I say “perhaps triple conflicting discourse” because you indicated on a previous thread that you know nothing about God because, according to you, God is undefinable.

Perhaps you are not aware of the totally confused and conflicting nature of your discourse, or perhaps you do not want to admit it, or, for some reason which I ignore, perhaps you are simply unable to admit it, or, at least, offer some explanation for it.

If it’s any consolation, Yuyutsu, allow me to add that I see no reason to doubt your good faith.

Nevertheless, I’m afraid there’s nothing I can do about it, whatever the reason, and see no point in continuing this conversation.

Sorry, Yuyutsu.

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9 pages so far in the topic of free will.

9 pages to argue for the existence, and argue against the existiance of free will.

Again I want to stress that number. Because it is 9 pages where people CHOSE to communicate on this topic. If the number was 2 or even 3. Then the argument could be that the people felt compelled to write their view and had no choice on the matter. But over an extended amount of time and effort to deticated to this topic, that is a choice, not an forced act.

9 pages to continue the discussion should end the debate that we are only tools with no choice, but instead that we chose to take part in the debate.

Otherwise the argument would reduce into being compelled for other long thought out behavior, and kill the responsibility of anyone who has thought out a lie, or premeditated a crime. The responsibility of all of this is on each of us, because regardless of any compelling elements, our actions are our own choices. Long drawn out choices discredit any argument of not choosing the action.

Free will exists based on the evidance of a long debate over it existing.

Dear Banjo,

«the only logical conclusion that one can draw from the fact that you also declare that you consider yourself, myself and other people to be God is that you consider your God to be a “physical object” (or thing) according to your own definition of us all as “persons”.»

The only conflict here is with your assumption as if we were persons. We are not.

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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

While I do believe that we have free will and choice, I cannot see how the fact that there are 9 pages here proves it.

One might feel compelled when they are not while another might feel free when they are not: it is not impossible for feelings to mislead us, even for a long time.

«regardless of any compelling elements, our actions are our own choices»

This is obviously true, but the debate still rages whether or not the actions of our body are indeed "ours".

Yuyutsu.

Did you type up that last message to Banjo and me? Or did your body do it. The truth is that there is an overlap. The actions of our bodies are our own actions. Even actions done without free choice (like breathing) are our actions because it's what we are doing. There's no raging debate in that, any more then there would be a debate over whether you wrote your response, or your body did without your concent.

As for the 9 pages thing. The point is that any long drawn out action, or any planned out thought discredit the idea that either of those were not a choice. The reason is because over time anyone can change their path to not seek another route instead of continuing on with a commited action. That shows a choice. This discussion just on the length alone, proves that people chose to be in it. Thus giving credit to the free will of their actions.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«Did you type up that last message to Banjo and me?»

I am asking that same question myself and I don't have a clear answer.

For writing this message, my body was obviously only used as a tool by my mind, my keyboard too, so just as it would be insane to claim "my keyboard did it", the option of "my body did it" can also be safely discarded.

But was the message written by myself or by my mind? Was my body instructed to write the message by my independent free choice, or was this instruction done automatically by my mind due to its ongoing habits?

It is hard to tell. It is pretty tricky to tell.

Overall and over the long term, I can control and direct my mind, but have I done so in this particular instance, or did I lapse and just allowed my mind to automatically do its thing? Was I actually involved or was it just a case of one part of my mind influencing another part of my mind? This requires very deep reflection and honesty!

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Alternately, if we transcend the personal level and look at this question at the level of the Absolute Truth, then I as God either wrote both that message, signed "Yuyutsu" as well as the next message, signed "Not_Now.Soon", or I wrote neither of them because none was ever actually written as the world and time itself are just an illusion.

However, a learned theoretical answer is not very helpful and not as beneficial for spiritual growth as the answer I could obtain by sincere and intense contemplation.