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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You wrote :

« … I cannot conceive how voluntary worship that comes from one's heart can possibly make a worthiness.dent in one's dignity »
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That’s what I suspected, Yuyutsu. I perceive it as a selfish act, an act of self-satisfaction – not an act of love for another. In your post on the bottom of page 20 of this thread, you wrote :

« Worship is an expression of love, consisting of the worshipper focusing their attention, through both their senses and their organs of action on their beloved »

To which I replied : I beg to differ, Yuyutsu. The OED defines worship as :

« The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity »

Your mind is turned inwards, not outwards. You are obsessed with all the love you have in your heart that you want to give to your “beloved”. You are not thinking of what your beloved (the “other”) wants. It does not seem to occur to you that he may not want you to love him at all.

Once again, if I were God and I created the universe and everything in it, including mankind, it would not be because I was a narcissist who wanted everything and everybody to worship me and love me with all their hearts and all their minds.

If I created anything, I should not want it to be part of me. I should want it to be something entirely different, separate, independent, completely autonomous. Otherwise I should not have “created” anything at all. It would simply be something I “detached” from myself.

I should want that something to live its life freely, according to its own will – for good or for bad, for better or for worse. Without any intervention whatsoever from my part.

As I already indicated, Yuyutsu, in my humble opinion, worship has nothing to do with love. It has to do with one's own sentiments – without any consideration for the “other”.

I see love as "unconditional selflessness" with an element of “self-sacrifice”.

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Dear Banjo,

Your understanding of God seems to be based on literal reading and common interpretations of some biblical sections. Accordingly you consider God to be an external power and wilful creator, complete with desires and sentiments. No wonder you do not believe in Him - I already showed that such a being cannot exist. But strangely enough you still fantasise "If I were God and I created the universe and everything in it...". You ALREADY are God, Banjo!

No, it does not mean that you are a deity or a creator: gods such as the biblical are useful, but imaginary, tools for focusing one's God-worship, simply because it is practically impossible to focus one's attention directly on God, who has no attributes. If a particular god does not appeal to you, then feel free to worship another whom you love most.

Is worship selfish?

Yes, like anything else we do - how can we escape selfishness anyway? Even if we help others and give charity for example, we do so at best in order to feel good and/or to avoid feeling bad on seeing the suffering of others. Even those who sacrifice their life for others, often desire to be remembered for it.

But what we CAN do, is to discover who we really are, drop the false "self" (often called 'ego'), wake from the illusion of being just a human, with all the small desires that come with it. Yes, this is suicidal for the ego, a "self"-sacrifice, but it is not suicidal for one's true self and our love can eventually overcome our ego. Once we realise that truly we are God, and so are all "others", that our-selves and them-selves are the same, then what could possibly be wrong with such expansive and inclusive "selfishness"?

And in order to get there, we do need to turn our mind inwards, not outwards. Once we look and find God deep inside, we find everything and all others there as well.

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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You wrote :

« Your understanding of God seems to be based on literal reading and common interpretations of some biblical sections »

No, it is based on the OED definition of God :

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity »
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You appear to be certain that there is such a God, Yuyutsu, and that you know just about everything there is to know about him. You write :

« You ALREADY are God, Banjo! … If a particular god does not appeal to you, then feel free to worship another whom you love most »

But when I asked you on another thread, back in February this year, for your definition of God, you replied :

« God cannot be defined … »

I don’t see how you can know anything about him if he cannot be defined, or even if there is a God. Why do you believe there is a God if you don’t know what he is ? How do you know that I am God or that there are several gods ? Not only do you think that I am God, but you also advise me to “feel free to worship another whom [I] love most”.

I’m sorry to have to say this, Yuyutsu, but you really do seem to be a little bit confused. None of that makes any sense at all.

As I already indicated I am not inclined to indulge in worship of any kind (‘The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity” – OED), nor to love (defined as "unconditional selflessness" with an element of “self-sacrifice”) any undefinable God or god – even if you consider that I am God.

I’m afraid there’s not much hope that we can ever understand each other, Yuyutsu.

If you don’t mind, I’ll now sign off this thread.

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A person who speaks of “a God”, and asks for evidence to prove the existence of "a God", understands as little of what (religious) faith is, as the person who speaks of “a gravitation”, and asks for evidence to prove the existence of "a gravitation", understands of physics. One can "see gravitation" only through its effect on material objects, and one can “see God” only through His effect on humanity, especially on the person who sincerely seeks Him.

To Banjo Paterson.

Regarding the history within the bible. Archeology is from what I've understood it is a slow process to find results. Within my lifetime there was a point where scholars said there's no evidance of Jesus actually existing. Now that has changed narrative to there is evidance of Jesus existing, but still resistance to accepting Jesus except in the way they redefine Him. With no proof of who Jesus was, they make up their own story of Jesus and call it "the historic Jesus."

As much as I disagree with the falsehood of remaking who Jesus was, it at least shows that there has been evidance to support that Jesus existed. In the same way I see archeological finds confirm details mentioned in the Old Testament. It's the sort of thing that is slow to find, but they are still finding them and confirming them.

With that in mind, I do hope more and more is discovered to continue the trend of confirming different elements of the bible. Even if scholars show resistance to accept the bible as historically accurate, and make up explainations to deny what is uncovered by making up a new narrative (with no evidance to support it) as they had done with Jesus). Even then with misdirection and with questions that haven't yet found an answer in archeological digs, they still keep finding more to confirm the bible instead of correct it. It's worth mentioning that in light of your links.

(Continued)

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Regarding pride. There are many verses saying that God accepts the humble and hates the proud or the arrogant. This doesn't just mean public acts of bowing to the ground or something in like manner, but more as a way of life. Be humble to those around you and humble to God kind of thing. In that context from what I've seen it actually encourages human dignity among each other because we don't see ourselves as greater or better then others. Which encourages respect among the people your around.

That said, I do not agree with Yuyutsu regarding God being a collection of all of us, or something similar to that nature. In my opinion a personal search for God will find results. It has for me and has for so many others. Therefore the point Yuyutsu makes that He can't be found, comes up short against the testimonies of those who say they have found God.

When it comes to God I think there is merit in both the accounts from people who say they've found Him, as well as merit in seeking Him on our own. Don't leave it up to the historians or the scientists. If God is real and the claim that He seeks to redeem and save us (even as we are, broken and sinful), then a personal search is more then all we need. Historical and scientific searches can continue to progress slowly, but a personal search can be confirmed or rejected within our own influence. Search and see if He responds to show Himself in one way or another.