(Continued)

The second level of this question though isn't about finding faults in a theory or an understanding, but just a radar for bs and lies. For me this is my rule of thumb. If someone says they gave you their experience on one thing or another, ask if there is anything for them to gain by you believing them. If there isn't then there's a good likelihood that the observations are fine and not a con. If they seem sound of mind, (not drunk, high, or otherwise mentally handicapped) then they are likely just as reasonable as you are and worth considering (assuming there isn't something for them to gain from their claims). And if they show no signs of maliciousness or pulling a prank, then it's reasonable to consider them in their claims and observations. Do this and you'll be able to weed out a lot of falsehoods, as well as find out which sources are reliable enough to trust more without the need to test everything they say.

The last consideration in this rule of thumb is to consider that even if they don't measure up against either trustworthy, sound of mind, or has it out to get you; that doesn't disqualify something as being true. But it is less trustworthy. So consider it or reject it on a higher degree of caution.

With regards to the bible being true. I trust it partially from experience and observing others when we try to apply it's teachings, and largely out of trusting God, and my own search and conclusions that the bible is from God.

//But it challenges the basis of evolution when evolution is explained as part of the start of life on earth.//

Sorry, what? Evolution is something that applies to living organisms. What you're talking about is abiogenesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

//The theory that all life started from single cell life to develop into more complex organisms is a counter theory of the theory that over time all things erode and fall apart. There is no natural explanation of adaption and becoming a more complex species when looking at the second law of thermodynamics. It doesn't work.//

Sometimes I don't know why I bother....

Hey NNS, if you're such an expert on thermodynamics - without the use of search engines, what do the 0th and 3rd Laws state? What units is entropy measured in? What constant does the k in my tattoo represent, and from what other two well-known constants can it be derived?

Yeah, I thought so. I think I'll probably pay more attention to your criticisms of the 2nd Law when you demonstrate a proper appreciation of the physics.

Here's a great place to start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2iTCm0xpDc

Dear Banjo,

I think we can agree on the value of freedom, which we both cherish.

«I have great respect for human dignity – at all times and in all circumstances»

[I understand "dignity", but what do you mean by "human dignity"? is animal indignity OK?]

It is common experience to suffer indignity during one's first-few and last-few years of life when we are helpless and unable to control our bodies. It is also the norm to suffer indignity in between, for example when our need to pay the bills drives us to work for a boss/company whose values we disagree with. We also suffer indignity when confronted by authorities, such as in international border-crossing terminals.

But how possibly could voluntary worship from the depth of one's heart be perceived as indignity? All I can think of is the superficial association of physical gestures with some dark past: yes kings, emperors and slave-masters of yore expected such gestures - whether you liked them or not, else off with your head, but there the similarity ends.

«It is self-demeaning, a sign of servility, submission, and self-humiliation.»

All that can possibly (but not always) feel demeaned or humiliated is one's false sense of self, one's ego. Looking at it more deeply, one's true Self is actually the worshipped rather than the worshipper.

As for "servility" and "submission", aren't we all "guilty"?
All we can do is select what we submit to, be it our genetic instincts, our addictions, our senses' desires for gratification, our various other weaknesses, social norms - or God. We are free to choose.

Since this is my free choice, for me, worship of God leads to freedom, most importantly the freedom from birth and death.

Time-servers are the cowering slaves of slaves,
Alone on earth, who serves the Lord is free,
Each soul shall win the gift that it most craves;
Seek God, my soul — God shall your portion be!

- http://www.angelfire.com/ct/halevi/halevi-poem16.html

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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

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Thank you for indicating your threefold method of determining the truth – in particular, in relation to the narratives of the bible :

1) investigate
2) test the understanding
3) assess the truth simply by trusting where it came from

Historians and archaeologists have pretty much employed this method in relation to the biblical narratives – except, perhaps as regards your third step. I suspect it would be more correct to say they try to identify the source and its validity rather than simply trusting it without question.

Here is a résumé of their findings to date :

Historicity of the bible :

« Archaeological discoveries since the 19th century are open to interpretation, but broadly speaking they lend support to few of the Old Testament's narratives as history and offer evidence to challenge others. »

Historicity of Jesus :

« Almost all historical critics agree that a historical figure named Jesus taught throughout the Galilean countryside c. 30 CE, was believed by his followers to have performed supernatural acts, and was sentenced to death by the Romans, possibly for insurrection. »

Historicity of the gospels :

« Almost all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the biblical accounts of Jesus, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. Elements whose historical authenticity is disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity of Jesus, the miraculous events including the resurrection, and certain details about the crucifixion. »

Here are the sources :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible#cite_note-3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels

I understand you have your personal reasons for placing your faith in the bible but, as can be seen from the verifiable evidence above, concluding that everything it claims is true, is, I’m afraid, far from reality.

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Dear Yuyutsu,

.

You ask :

« I understand "dignity", but what do you mean by "human dignity"? is animal indignity OK? »
.

As dignity is “the state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect” (OED), lying prostrate on the floor in front of someone, an image, idol, God etc., is an attitude not worthy of honour or respect – whether it be executed by a person, animal or any other life form.

I consider that anybody who practices worship demonstrates a lack of self-esteem and self-respect. How can he expect others to respect his human dignity if he does not respect it himself ?

I see no justification for a person devaluing himself simply because he is in the presence of another. His value may be insignificant, it is not diminished any further by the presence of the other.

By the same token, remaining upright or seated does not signify that he is equal to the other. Why should he pretend to be something he is not ?

Why do you and your friends believe that your God (or whatever) is pleased to see you all lying flat on your faces on the floor ? If I were your God, I should be extremely displeased that you thought I should be flattered. I should consider it an insult.

To me, any form of worship is an insult.

I have the utmost respect for human dignity - at all times and in all circumstances.

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Dear Banjo,

It looks like we stumbled upon this fascinating topic of dignity, but before we embark, either here or on a new dedicated thread, let me stress that I cannot conceive how voluntary worship that comes from one's heart can possibly make a worthiness.dent in one's dignity.

Granted, whatever we do, there will be others who dislike it and might respect us less for it (as well as others who could respect us more for it), but this reflects on THEIR attitude rather on our worthiness.

«I consider that anybody who practices worship demonstrates a lack of self-esteem and self-respect.»

I can't see how, but if anything, in my circles the danger is that someone, by over-prostrating less-than-sincerely, might elicit more undue esteem (from others and from themselves) than they deserve.

«How can he expect others to respect his human dignity if he does not respect it himself ?»

Well I need to understand further what exactly you mean by "human dignity" (as opposed to just "dignity"), so I can evaluate whether and to what extent I respect it to begin with and/or want others to respect mine.

«Why do you and your friends believe that your God (or whatever) is pleased to see you all lying flat on your faces on the floor ?»

Well we don't, at least to the extent that I know my friends. There may well be some uneducated peasants in remote India who still believe so, but this is not what Hinduism teaches. Rather, prostrating in front of an image with an open heart can help to awaken within oneself those qualities that the image represents.

And BTW, in my circles at least, we never bow or prostrate as a group, rather it is an individual expression that those of us who so wish do informally, one-by-one.