.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

.

You ask :

« What is irrational to the idea that God has always been there. Unless studies of physic's has changed since I've learned a highschool equivalent … energy and matter can not be created or distroyed. Just that it changes … Regarding God being believed to have always existed, why is that irrational, when the idea that mater and energy have always existed ? »

You add :

« Regarding faith, and believing the bible. What of that? I trust the bible because I trust God … it's a matter of trust »
.

You did not indicate when you “learned a highschool equivalent” but the creation of matter from nothing (a quantum vacuum), was established as a testable scientific fact by a team of 20 American physicists from four different institutions in 1997. They published their work in the 1st Septembre issue of Physical Review Letters, a peer-reviewed, scientific journal of the American Physical Society.

We all know what we mean when we talk about matter in our daily conversations (any physical substance) but there is no single universally agreed scientific meaning of the word "matter". The same goes for energy (the ability to perform work).

Apparently, matter came from fluctuations in a pre-existing quantum vacuum. According to the physicists, these fluctuations are caused by virtual particles that simply pop into and out of existence.

In a low-energy environment, massive particles cannot borrow enough energy to exist in any quantity for even a minute amount of time, which is why we do not observe the creation of these particles in our everyday life. Whereas, in a high-energy environment such as that which existed at the beginning of the universe, there would have been adequate energy for the creation of massive particles. Scientists can now create them using high-energy accelerators.

The God hypothesis is highly unlikely.
.

Regarding your faith or trust in the bible, the concensus among scholars is that the creation narratives in Genesis are based on Mesopotamian and Sumerian mythology, not scientific fact or revelation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative

.

To Banjo Peterson.

I wasn't aware that particle accelerators broke the first law of thermodynamics. A massive amount of energy is needed to create the particles. That still rings true for the concept that either the matter or the energy in the universe has always existed. It wasn't created or destroyed. As far as things not having a beginning this is the point I was trying to address. It's a common understanding that the matter or the energy of the universe has always existed in some form or another.

Taking that same understanding of matter and energy and applying it to God, there is no reason to think that God is limited by having to be created. However I should clarify the point further. God can create or take away what's in the world. Because He created the universe, the 1 law of thermodynamics is a limitation to us not to God. It's just that the first law of thermodynamics dynamics shows the concept of eternity in the past, not just the future.

As for the hypothesis of God, no matter how unlikely it seems, the reality is that He exists. It's not a hypothetical, it's just real life.

.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

.

You wrote in the first paragraph of your post :

« … either the matter or the energy in the universe has always existed. It wasn't created or destroyed »

And in the second paragraph :

« Because He [God] created the universe … »
.

I find it a bit far-fetched (to say the least) that you believe that a hypothetical God created the universe from pre-existing matter/energy that had always existed, even though it had never been created – even more so, considering that matter/energy is an integral part of the same universe you believe your hypothetical God created.

Because, if there were no matter/energy, there would be no universe. There would be just – nothing !

I’m afraid it doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
.

You also wrote :

« As for the hypothesis of God … the reality is that He exists. It's not a hypothetical, it's just real life »

I have no reason to doubt that you sincerely believe that to be true, Not_Now.Soon. However, to the best of my knowledge, the existence of any form of God has never been indisputably established. If it had, I’m sure the whole world would have heard of it by now.

As we all know, many people believe in many different Gods and all are just as convinced as you are that their God(s) exist(s) in reality, that it/they is/are the only true God(s) in “real life” (to employ your expression).

Until such time as the existence of such (a) God(s) has been indisputably established, it remains a simple hypothesis.

For that reason, “hypothetical God” is the appropriate expression except, perhaps, when addressing an audience composed uniquely of devotees who share the same or similar religious beliefs and convictions.

That said, Not_Now.Soon, please be assured that I respect your religious beliefs and convictions. I am happy for you to continue to refer simply to “God”. Perhaps you would be kind enough to reciprocate and accept that I continue to refer to the “hypothetical God” in which you believe.

.

Dear Banjo,

Re “hypothetical God”, clearly, God is not an hypotheses, for I do not know of anyone, religious or otherwise, who ever claimed that an hypotheses created this world or the like.

What indeed is an hypotheses is the claim that "God exists".

I agree with you that this hypotheses is false, same as would "God has blue teeth", but why should God exist in the first place (or have blue teeth for that matter)? Why make such ridiculous demands on Him?

Existence is for things: had God existed, then that would reduce Him(/Her/It) to being just a thing, a part of His own creation - how ridiculous and how unfit for worship would God been in that case.

So why this fuss, by both yourself and Not_Now.Soon about this silly question of God's existence?
Why worry - just love God, worship Him, remember Him at all times and aspire to be with Him always!

To Banjo

If this clears up the confusion, here is my point. Either:

A) God is real and created the universe. (Making God eternal both past and future but not the universe).

Or

B) that the universe has always existed in some form or another either as a high energy state or some other mass heavy singularity.

If God exists then the 1st law of thermodynamics (which as far as I have heard hasn't been disproven) is an observation and a limitation that we have. We can't create or destroy matter or energy, only change it into something else.

Even if God doesn't exist then the idea of anything having always existed isn't unfathomable as you argued before. Because the universe in some form or another always has been. Eternal with no beginning.

That should clear up any confusion.

"Apparently, matter came from fluctuations in a pre-existing quantum vacuum."
pre-existing ? Come in, Buddha. Aum ,aum. Meditate on the pre- pre- pre- existence, world without end ,amen.