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The Forum > Article Comments > Reasonableness and citizenship > Comments

Reasonableness and citizenship : Comments

By Don Aitkin, published 6/6/2018

The world is moving slowly and perhaps hesitantly to recognising that a person can 'belong' to two nations in a positive way, and act as a citizen in each.

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I'm sorry Don, but your essay fails because of a false premise, i.e., that one can serve two masters, without eventually needing to decide where final loyalty lies.
We have the same head of state as Canada, New Zealand and most of the commonwealth.
However, if we are competing with the Uk for an export order they could also fill? The crown and our head of state will go to bat for the UK and against us.
Moreover, in every other case of dual citizenship, there will eventually be a conflicting interest somewhere? Even if covert or undefined?
One cannot, however, presume the same for citizens born here of dual citizens and obtain their dual citizenship via archaic laws.
That said, swearing allegiance at a citizenship ceremony should be recognized in our law as any and all allegiance automatically transferring here to us and ours!
Moreso, if we are both allies and share the same head of state, i.e., fellow Anzacs?
One cannot expect more than to stand in front of a bullet aimed at a fellow Anzac, or call down shell fire on one's own forward position, to prove both loyalty and allegiance! As well as mutually shared interest!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 6 June 2018 10:53:40 AM
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The world is also trying to convince everyone that multiculturalism is good.

Looks like the world is not very intelligent, so whatever they think is a positive thing is more than likely a bad thing for citizens as a whole.
Posted by Philip S, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 11:48:01 AM
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I'm not particularly perturbed by the interruption to the comfort zone of politicians.

I'm not surprised that politicians lie, on filling out application forms. Even using the excuse of ignorance; ignorance of the law, is no excuse before the law, not for the common folk.

No sympathy at all for this. They were rightly sacked.
And constitutional change, never ever.

There is a corporate puppet regularly posts articles on OLO, who would be rubbing his hands with glee at this suggestion.
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 12:57:32 PM
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According to David Flint the writers of the Constitution did not intend citizens of Britain, New Zealad and Canada to be classed as foreign. Further, both the Senate and the House had the power to make judgment on the issue. The whole costly, sorry affair is just more proof that our political class does not have a clue.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 4:26:26 PM
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As a horse can be elected as a Roman Consul, why can't the people elect a dual-citizen, or even a horse for that matter, as their representative in parliament?

Section 44, which was supposedly designed to hurt politicians, rather restricts the ability of electors to exercise democracy.

One day, I hope not in the near future, on seeing that the Chinese invasion is near, nearly all Australians will take up citizenship of some other country to which they could flea. The only ones who won't do so, will be Chinese Australians who are loyal at heart to the Communist party. They or their parents would have of course renounced their Chinese citizenship long before and so they would remain the only ones eligible to be elected, and subsequently hand the keys to Australia to the Chinese on a golden platter. Great outcome, isn't it?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 6:42:07 PM
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Totally disagree with you on this one Don. As Alan says, you can't serve 2 masters. I also agree that we must make it definite that swearing loyalty to Oz automatically relinquishes any captainship of any other country.

With representation, I don't believe that any amount of swearing loyalty can be trusted to eliminate previously felt loyalty or sympathy for a previous country. It should be made totally impossible for anyone not born in Oz to stand for any elected post. Anyone wishing to govern us must first be one of us by birth, not some minor citizenship oath.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 8:47:09 PM
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Got it in a nutshell hasbeen,unless you were born here no where near taxpayer funded influence ever again.
Posted by mmadpat, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 8:55:41 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

«you can't serve 2 masters»

MP's are not supposed to serve any of those masters: their only master should be their local community which elected them.

They should be serving their electors and them alone and there indeed should be sanctions/safeguards to prevent them from serving anyone else instead, including themselves, their family and friends and including both their country of origin and the Australian commonwealth.

At present, to the best of my knowledge, no MP is serving their country of origin or any other country they previously had citizenship of, but worryingly, some do serve China even though they never lived there. Besides, most MPs do not serve the Australian commonwealth anyway, but rather themselves and their family and friends.

«It should be made totally impossible for anyone not born in Oz to stand for any elected post.»

I understand: you want to prevent the people of the land from electing a leader that will do what it takes on their behalf to release them from the commonwealth of Australia if this is what they wish. It seems that for you (please forgive and correct me if I'm wrong, I would be very happy to learn that this is not the case), the state of Australia is more important than the people of Australia.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 10:08:14 PM
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Hasbeen, that's a tough call! So far as I know no one in public life has made such a suggestion. I can't support it myself. I see the argument for it, but it doesn't persuade, in a land where immigration has been so important.
Posted by Don Aitkin, Thursday, 7 June 2018 6:35:11 AM
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Good on ya Alan B.
"No man can serve two masters."
- That's what I was going to say.

The problem with the world these days is a complete absence of ethics;
Followed by ignorance and narrow-mindness, which is a product of the lack of ethics.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 7 June 2018 8:26:55 AM
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And that is the very problem Don. Migration is far too important, because it is far too great. When we now have suburbs where English is only spoken as a second or third language, business signs are in a foreign language, & so too even street signs, immigration has reached the ridiculous.

Post WW11 immigration did stretch us somewhat. We struggled to absorb the huge & rapid influx of people from countries with different language. Then a pause allowed us time to turn those into Australians. That they wanted to start & build for themselves a new life as Australians made this task possible.

Today a huge percentage of immigrants & refugees are coming here just for the welfare handout. They neither want to become Australians, or to build a new life for themselves. They are here just for what they can get, & are of no use to us, nor will they ever be. So many still unemployed after 5 years is proof if you need any.

Yes I know we have built our economy on building accommodation for immigrants & little else. We currently waste massive amounts of money supporting & housing these people, all to the disadvantage of the population in general.

Our kids are having a growing problem supporting our aging population, & really don't need even more blowins to support in a style they always wanted for free.

Continued.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 7 June 2018 1:04:39 PM
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Continued.

It would have been better subsidising the car & white goods industries we once had to provide work, than spending even more importing tenants for ridiculously expensive housing, built to provide the work.

Winding back the building industry now, would bring immense pain, but nothing like the pain that will be generated with it's collapse in the next global financial crisis.

Currently immigration is merely kicking the can down the road. Even worse, it is like kicking a snow ball down the slope. It gets bigger the longer & further it rolls. When the stuff finally hits the fan, it will not just be financial this time, but will induce ethnic tensions, that will be hard to contain.

We are sewing the seeds of our own Beirut Lebanon, & the longer it takes to put a stop the rot, the worse the coming catastrophe will be.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 7 June 2018 1:04:50 PM
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A member of federal parliament is expected to serve the interests of Australia first and not to have any conflicts of interest. The requirement that one has completely renounced other citizenships (or possible citizenships) before even nominating may be a little over the top, the requirements are well known and publicised, and not too onerous to achieve in light of the highly paid and responsible job of being an MP.

I think that the lesson has now been learnt and we should not get a repeat.

The alternative of a vastly expensive constitutional referendum for the convenience of a handful of people is hardly justifiable.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 7 June 2018 2:10:14 PM
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Dear SM,

«A member of federal parliament is expected to serve the interests of Australia first»

Expected by whom? Do you agree with Hasbeen's idea that the state of Australia is more important than the people of Australia?

I believe that a member of parliament, including federal parliament, should put the interests of those who elected her/him first, including when those conflict with the interests of the commonwealth of Australia.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 7 June 2018 5:01:06 PM
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To begin with, there is no guarantee that an individual having solo citizenship is going to put the interests of the state before his/her own.
Just because one renounces citizenship doesn't guarantee that their loyalties don't lay with that renounced no more that a Jew converting to Catholicism to avoid pain and hardship particularly for his family.
Delusional are those believing otherwise.
Next you'll be trying to tell me that those with an Irish heritage are going to ignore it in favour of non existent heritage of no value to him/her.
The indigenous Australians have Australian heritage....those of European/Asian origin have European/ Asian heritage
Any individual will follow his/her beliefs as they see fit.
Any politician, to this day, will side with interests outside this country and claim it to be in the interests of Australia so spare me the jingoistic quack quack presentation.
When I see someone saying 'No' to the US or UK then I'll believe Australia has started to turn the corner, and so will the populace begin to think they have an identity worth while.
Yap yapping about being Ostrayan just doesn't do it.
All should be allowed to retain dual even triple citizenship and put it on the table in full sight, revealing to all, the enrichment of the social fabric governing Australia.
Posted by Special Delivery, Thursday, 7 June 2018 6:14:50 PM
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We witnessed dual citizenship, in the form of the so called Australians who raced over to join Isis, and thought nothing of shooting at their so called, Fellow Australians.

Dont want people here who are prepared to shoot Australians. They are liars anyway, because they swear allegiance. Who needs liars and turncoats, not the type of people you want standing with you, in times of threats to the nation. They are more likely to shoot you in the back, as support you.

I think the top end of town is using taxpayers money to bring these people in and house them. We get the debt, whereas they line their pockets with the profits.

The whole thing is a deceitful mess on all sides. And it has a very good chance of ending in disaster, unless people who come here, realise they should leave their wars and hatreds behind them and truly become Australian in every way.

Maybe they want a civil war here, well there’s a good chance if they continue with their present mindsets, there will be one. You are either standing on our side of the line when catastrophe or war comes, or you are standing on the enemy side of the line.
Which is it? That's the way I look at loyalties. If you’re not on my and my fellow Australians side of the line, when the nation is threatened, you are no friend to us.
It’s a simple yes or no in my mind. No excuses. Excuses and reasons are a smokescreen for No!
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 7 June 2018 9:07:39 PM
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CHERFUL,
It's not often I'm shocked and in awe when reading an individuals perception on social matters but I can tell you I found your contribution absolutely frightening.
To say that the conjecture, supposition and presumption, displayed in your submission left my mind in shock would be an understatement
I have to congratulate you in achieving what an average Jingo would find difficult to achieve but you managed to do it so succinctly.
I look forward to reading your future contributions so as to better understand the total sense of futility man has ahead of him.
Posted by Special Delivery, Thursday, 7 June 2018 11:17:40 PM
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Special Delivery
Thank you, I found your post insightful too. Saying that just because people hand over their dual citizenship, doesn't mean they do this at the intellectual, emotional level, is very true.
I would however prefer people not to have dual citizenship because it fails to set an expectation of loyalty to this country. I think we need to be up front with setting clear expectations and standards.
I tend to have a view of things, that people do find confronting. But I prefer the truth to ideology or confusing how we wish things were, with how they really are.

Look forward to seeing you on online opinion.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 8 June 2018 7:57:02 PM
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Absolutely simplistic binary not dissimilar to belief in God vs no belief.

We always share ambiguous loyalties while nation states are quite abstract and artificial constructs. Meanwhile it's not unusual for elites to demand loyalty of the plebs through nationalism, but not of themselves, 'leadership'?

EU is a good example of national leaders, especially central European, taking significant funding in net terms while publicly criticising or demonising the EU. Many of the same conservative leaders begged for entry to the EU (including personal financial opportunities) however, many in the mobile lower median age voter demographic were and are seen as not suitably loyal (obstacles to voting); in other words, leaders suffered relevance deprivation syndrome (when expecting unearned respect and authority).

If Australia was serious about loyalties, then surely those British on the electoral rolls from pre '83, should either take citizenship or have the privilege of voting removed? This would be a conundrum for many Australians who view Australia as a WASP redoubt?
Posted by Andras Smith, Monday, 11 June 2018 10:59:12 AM
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