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The Forum > Article Comments > Followers or thinkers? > Comments

Followers or thinkers? : Comments

By Ian Nance, published 14/3/2018

But isn’t Australia battling to choose between freedom of religion, and freedom from religion? Holy Guacamole! Just what in heaven’s name do you believe in?

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I hope the 'panel' isn't costing us too much; just another quango for a wealthy, retired politician and a bunch of anonymous snouts-in-troughs. It will just be another report to shelve and forget about. I just hope that they can spell 'ageing', and don't sneer at religion because it's “ancient”. And, what the hell is 'disturbing' about a culture having a “ a high measure of belief in some form of deity”?

This person needs to get out more. His understanding and intelligence are very limited.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 14 March 2018 10:31:36 AM
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Ian - could you please define what makes a particular action morally "right" in your understanding?
Posted by JP, Wednesday, 14 March 2018 10:42:02 AM
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These atheist are certainly irrational. They have the audacity to speak in absolutes while denying the existence of them. This author seems to be an irrational thinker from the something from nothing brigade.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 14 March 2018 11:36:06 PM
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//They have the audacity to speak in absolutes while denying the existence of them.//

Atheists don't disbelieve in absolutes, runner.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 March 2018 4:10:25 AM
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In reply to JP's question about what action I consider to be morally right, I believe that it revolves around treating another in the same way that I would like to be. To live is to act, and our actions can have either harmful or beneficial consequences for ourselves and others. Buddhist ethics is concerned with the principles and practices that help one to act in ways that help rather than harm. These practices are guided by precepts. These are not rules or commandments, but principles of training, which are undertaken freely and put into practice with intelligence and sensitivity. There are a number of precepts which apply to a wide range of actions, the most observed ones being the advice not to kill, not to steal, not to engage in improper sexual conduct , not to make false statements, and not to consume intoxicants. There is the matter of what is moral when related to activities. I consider that an action’s being moral relates to the principles of correct conduct, or the distinction between right and wrong. I hope that this reply helps an appreciation that the results of all thoughts, speech, and actions are shaped by the codes of rightful behaviour proclaimed by many religions which could include Christianity’s ‘Golden Rule’ of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you’ Regards, Ian
Posted by Ponder, Thursday, 15 March 2018 8:28:35 AM
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Thank-you for replying Ian.

In your article you say that each of us has a personal responsibility to decide for ourselves what is ethical and moral. If that is so, what do you say to any one, let’s say another atheist, who has a different opinion to you as to what is the right or wrong thing to do in a particular instance? If everyone just has to decide for themselves then it seems that their opinion is just as “right” as yours even though it may advocate the opposite course of action.

For example, someone may decide that, for some reason, that it would be right for them to end your life. Would you accept that or would you say that they are wrong and shouldn’t kill you? Who is “right”, the other person or you? Why would that be so?

You identify as a Buddhist and so I expect you seek to follow the Buddhist precepts. But these precepts have just been made up by other people in the past, given that there are no deities. Why do you follow the ideas of these people? - especially as you say that everyone has the responsibility to make up our own moral beliefs. Do you think the Buddhist morals are somehow “right”? But what makes them any more “right” than someone else who advocates the complete opposite?
Posted by JP, Thursday, 15 March 2018 11:34:11 AM
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'Atheists don't disbelieve in absolutes, runner.'

really Toni that is not what your high priest's dogmas state

'Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) declared, and philosophers generally agree, without God there is no absolute truth and thus no universal moral standard of conduct. Humanist John Dewey (1859-1952), co-author and signer of the Humanist Manifesto I (1933), declared, "There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes." '

https://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

I think you are confused which is not unusual when you adopt such irrational beliefs.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 15 March 2018 11:55:11 AM
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Yes, runner, atheists don't believe in God. Well done there, have a gold star.

That's not the the same as not believing in absolutes.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 March 2018 12:52:59 PM
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Oh thats right Toni you guys believe absolutely in your right to tear apart unborn children. Sorry I forgot the hypocrisy in the atheist who claim no such things as absolutes or truth while insisting on 'rights'.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 15 March 2018 1:06:45 PM
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//Oh thats right Toni you guys//

I'm not an atheist, runner.

I'm just not as dumb as you.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 March 2018 1:22:47 PM
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'I'm just not as dumb as you.'

congratulations Toni I am sure your mum is so proud of you.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 15 March 2018 1:25:30 PM
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In reply to JP’s thoughtful concerns about differing opinions on potential actions, I’d suggest that in deciding if something is right or not right, the question of whether harm to another living being would result is a good guideline. I agree that it can be enormously difficult to decide of degrees of “rightness”. For this reason, Buddhist precepts, which are not rules but rather advice given by our original teacher, the Bhuddha, help us in making correct decisions. This is one of the reasons that many of us study those teachings so thoroughly. After all, he’s the Professor, we’re the students. Cheers, Ian
Posted by Ponder, Thursday, 15 March 2018 5:46:10 PM
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//congratulations Toni I am sure your mum is so proud of you.//

I'm sure she's as proud as yours is when you insult people, runner.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 March 2018 6:51:17 PM
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Ian – you say that there are such things as “correct decisions” when it comes to making moral choices. What makes any moral decision a “correct” one? Is a correct one, simply one that conforms to what you think the Buddha thought was correct? But how did the Buddha know what was correct anyway since he was just a human being like the rest of us? And correct against what standard? Why is the morality that Buddha made up “right” while Hitler’s morality, presumably, is “wrong”? Who has the authority to say so?

Remember that you emphasise that each of us has the personal responsibility to decide for ourselves what is ethical and moral. If that is so then presumably the morality that Hitler has decided upon is as valid as Buddha’s. If not, why not?
Posted by JP, Thursday, 15 March 2018 8:44:41 PM
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Sorry, but I just don't understand this article:

The author's religion, Buddhism, does not utilise a belief in deities, whereas other religions do.
Both types of religions are valid and suit different kinds of people, so what's the fuss about?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 15 March 2018 9:37:31 PM
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JP – I feel that you want to tie me into an continuing debate about the rationale of Buddhist practice. Rather than continue to help you understand this lifestyle, I would be a little more caring by suggesting that you check out the wealth of information on the web. Beginning with a simple search of ‘Buddhism” you could progress as far as you wish in learning a little of this so-called religion. The historical truth you’d discover very early is that although the Buddha was an ordinary human, he gained complete enlightenment about every aspect of life, after which he spent the rest of his own life passing on the knowledge, and explaining how to learn. I think it's a bit unreasonable to compare his morality with that of Hitler. As I said in a previous post, a key element of morality is whether or not any living being is harmed. The purpose of my original article was to put forward my opinions on the fallibility of believing in some mythical deity, thus if your doing a little research helps you to understand where I'm coming from, then go for it, and best wishes. Ian
Posted by Ponder, Thursday, 15 March 2018 11:38:39 PM
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Dear Ponder,

«The purpose of my original article was to put forward my opinions on the fallibility of believing in some mythical deity»

This seems to address my question, thank you!

Well, the question of fallibility of a given belief is quite different from the question whether or not the content of that belief is consistent with the observable/objective reality.

For example, telling a child that if they steal, their deceased grandfather is sitting on a cloud and seeing it all, is not fallible - it helps to reduce harm!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 16 March 2018 12:28:31 AM
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Well done Ian Nance. Keep up the good work. Thanks very much for responding to the queries in your comments as well.
Posted by ericc, Friday, 16 March 2018 1:18:24 PM
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To Ian.

In your first page you mention teleology and explain it in the second page. But though you mean it as a criticism for religions with deities, you still hold it as true with the introduction of karma in page three. Or am I wrong and karma is not a form of teleology?

Honestly I see a good purpose of hearing out the wisdom of other people. Expecially if that wisdom has been distilled through history. With the good parts surviving through time, and the less wise or unwise parts either being forgotten or turned away from because through history those parts showed error or caused harm.

The wisdom of men distilled through history is not the greatest form of wisdom in my opinion, but it is a really good standard to consider none the less. By this I would consider certain creeds to be on the same level as Buddhist precepts, or even from the Budha himself.

However there is one other area worth considering too. History of religious people matching the more current history of Buddhist rulers. And that leads to certian Buddhists to seek closer to their roots. A simular behavior taken by Christians as well.

Though the precepts of Buddhism aren't that well known to me, I can say the teachings I know through Jesus in the gospels are of great merrit. I hope the precepts of Buddhism has good direction as well. However by your own article I can gather one thing those precepts lack. They lack God. In the end that is a very needed element. Though you might disagree consider the points observed above. Teleology in a deity and teleology in karma being simular. Wisdom from creeds of studied Christians and wisdom from studied Buddhists are probabley more on par then not. And finally the critism of history is shared by both Christian and Buddhist who failed to follow their own teachings.

I can look at much the same you have, but come to just the opposite conclusion. Thank God that I know God.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 17 March 2018 6:03:43 PM
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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«However by your own article I can gather one thing those precepts lack. They lack God.»

Buddhism only lack god(s), with a small 'g', not God.

Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.
Hinduism uses gods as a means to focus one's devotion to God.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam use a specific god to focus on God, while rejecting all other gods.
Buddhism does not use any gods, it simply is not concerned with gods because it uses other means to focus on God.


Please read this beautiful story: http://aumamen.com/story/does-god-exist-a-story-of-buddha

I have some reservations about the conclusion of the above link:

"Moral of the story: Belief that there is God or belief that there is no God are both equally useless, one has to realize the truth in himself with diligent self-effort. Enlightened one had told each of them what they had to know in order for them to get stronger on their spiritual quest"

While I agree that belief in god(s) is useless when adopted merely as an intellectual exercise, in my view it CAN be beneficial when it is incorporated within a right system of practical teachings.

That page also points to other beautiful links, such as:

http://aumamen.com/story/only-experience-can-remove-pain
http://aumamen.com/story/four-holy-men-from-four-different-religions
http://aumamen.com/story/six-blind-men-who-come-to-find-out-what-an-elephant-is
http://aumamen.com/story/beyond-atheism-and-theism
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 26 March 2018 7:33:57 PM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

A very interesting post that I can wholeheartidly agree with. Thanks for the link to aumamen that I did not know of.
Posted by George, Tuesday, 27 March 2018 12:22:38 AM
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