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The Forum > Article Comments > Philosophical arguments about religion at Christmas > Comments

Philosophical arguments about religion at Christmas : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 22/12/2017

In the light of the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse some people are claiming a general redundancy of Christianity, or even religion in general.

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To Banjo.
I'm an atheist by the way - god does not exist for me (nor the bible as an authority).
As to Locke and Kant I must beg to differ from their views (at least to the extent from what you have quoted).
Anyway, you have my arguments as to why I oppose capital punishment.
I have still not had an opportunity to look at the research around the deterrent effect, or otherwise, of capital punishment.....to come..
Posted by Ashbo, Saturday, 20 January 2018 5:16:34 PM
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Sorry to be a nitpick Banjo Paterson. But Jesus didn't say that Pilate has the power to descide Jesus's fate. Jesus actually said that Pilate could not stop it, but that the greater guilt for Jesus's cursifictiodeath lands on those who placed Jeses there. Pretty much the religous leaders of Israel. After that point it seems Pilate seems to try and not crusufy Jesus. Even to try and let Jesus go as was the custom to let one prisoner go before Israel celebrated Passover.

That said, Jesus's message of forgiveness and turning from your sins, doesn't mean He was against the death penalty. The way I figure, Jesus preached and taught a lot to keep people from the the ultimate death penalty. And he warned that those who continued in several sins would find their way to hell.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 21 January 2018 3:45:33 AM
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Dear Ashbo,

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You wrote :

« I'm an atheist by the way - god does not exist for me (nor the bible as an authority). As to Locke and Kant I must beg to differ from their views (at least to the extent from what you have quoted) »
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Thanks for your clarifications.

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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

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You wrote :

« … Jesus didn't say that Pilate has the power to decide Jesus's fate »
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You are quite right, Not_Now.Soon. It was Pilate himself who said that he had the power to decide Jesus’ fate. Jesus replied, as I indicated in my previous post to Ashbo, that the power to make this decision had been given to him (Pilate) by God.

Here is the text of their conversation as related in John 19:10-11 New King James Version (NKJV) :

10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”

11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore, the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

The "Biblehub" offers the following explanation of this text :

[ Pilate had twice said, with something of the pride of his position, “I have power.” Jesus says that he (Pilate) had of himself neither power of life nor power of death, that he (Pilate) had no power against Him but that which was given to him (Pilate) from above … that power was given to him (Pilate) of God for ...

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(Continued …

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Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 21 January 2018 10:16:05 AM
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(Continued …

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... the carrying out of the Messianic purposes which rendered the death of Jesus necessary. The position of Pilate was that of a half-conscious agent wielding this power. He indeed had sin, for he acted against his own better nature; but not the greater sin, for he did not act against the full light of truth.

“The one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin” — This cannot mean Judas, who is nowhere mentioned in this connection, and is excluded by the words “to you.” Judas delivered our Lord to the Jews. It was the Sanhedrin, and especially Caiaphas, the high priest, who, professing to represent God on earth, had delivered up the Son of God, and had declared that by the law He ought to die. (Comp. John 11:49; John 18:14-28.) ]
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For much of history, the Christian Churches accepted that capital punishment was necessary. In recent times many Christians have argued against the death penalty on the grounds that Christianity should support life.

Here is a well-documented article on the subject by the BBC :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/capitalpunishment_1.shtml

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Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 21 January 2018 10:23:24 AM
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Oh well, I tried.
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 January 2018 11:05:12 AM
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To Banjo.
Done the research and I'm more than happy to defer to you on the question of deterrence and capital punishment.
I have therefore amended my arguments as follows:

1. The taking of an innocent life is a terrible crime and a just punishment must be the consequence.
It is self evident that our criminal justice system is capable of miscarriages of justice.
Carrying out a death sentence provides no opportunity for a useful remedy for a miscarriage of justice (To be "useful", in the sense that I use it, requires the victim of the miscarriage to be alive).
2. Executing a person who is subsequently found to be innocent, can undermine confidence in the judicial system, and the rule of law more generally.
3. There are no robust studies that support the view that capital punishment acts as a deterrent, or otherwise - that capital punishment does not have a deterrence effect.
4. Executions only satisfy one aspect of sentencing - retribution. Retribution alone should only be reserved for the most heinous crimes.
5. Life without parole is an available sentence that satisfies 1,2,and 4 above.
On the matter of conclusive proof:
6. A J Phillips concerns seem persuasive to me particularly on the question of where the crime sits between conclusive and beyond reasonable doubt. It is not difficult to imagine trials where this judgement would be more difficult to arrive at and therefore open to error.
7. The doctrine of the sanctity of a human life.
I bring this up in a more narrow sense - State executions degrade the doctrine to meaninglessness thereby removing a sanction to murder.
8. Denial of the possibility of redemption - a strong argument from theology; In a secular form, the denial of the possibility of remorse and making a useful contribution to society (I acknowledge this is not a strong argument from the secular viewpoint).
9. In cases where there is no possibility for doubt of quilt there still remains the question of culpability. Determining culpability is open to human error and therefore the possibility of miscarriages of justice.
Posted by Ashbo, Sunday, 21 January 2018 4:37:26 PM
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