Dear Calwest,

«What we know for certain is that communism is not and was not the utopia Diver Dan seems to think it is. If there is no financial incentive available, why bother to be productive?»

Correct, but it's so sad that you could not come up with a better counter-argument!

Is THIS our main reason for detesting communism, that it's an economic disaster (which it is)?
Suppose communism happened to be economically brilliant, would you then embrace it?

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Dear Dan,

«We in the West have no yardstick»

Please speak for yourself: I live in the West and I have a very clear yardstick. I don't need government or politicians to provide me with one.

«Yep, I think communism sounds like a good alternative! There is a security attached to it»

So where would a religious person like yourself end up under communism? In a very secure prison or gulag, or securely six feet underground!

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Dear Aidan,

Thank you for introducing us to "politicalcompass.org".
I am happy to share your quadrant: http://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass?ec=-1.0&soc=-4.05

Regrettably it's only two-dimensional as the most important dimension is missing - the spiritual dimension.

cakwest,
I stand corrected regarding the formation of the Liberals.

"The major totalitarian governments were all communist..."
This form of cherry picking proves nothing. What stops nationalist China from being "major"? And why should the minor ones be ignored? Totalitarianism is totalitarianism whether it's Communist, Anticommunist, Baathist or anything else.

"Totalitarianism was a fundamental part of the communist package, starting with Lenin, who had no problem with liquidating his colleagues"
It may have escaped your attention, but Trotsky (the most famous of those liquidated colleagues, though it was Stalin not Lenin who ordered him killed) had quite a following. Indeed a large proportion of communists today are Trotskyists. It would be fanciful to imagine they'd have the same attitude as Trotsky's killers. Indeed this highlights the idiocy of regarding communism and capitalism as packages rather than collections of policies we can pick and choose from.

There does indeed need to be financial incentive available. But don't make the mistake of assuming that incentive is all that's needed. Opportunity is a far bigger limiting factor at the moment. Indeed ample opportunity but little reward is so preferable to ample reward but little opportunity to get it, it's hardly surprising that people remembered communist times fondly, especially straight after the GFC.

Aidan,

Communist China was - until relatively recently - communist, not nationalist. I certainly regard the Chinese communist revolution as "major". Indeed, I specifically mentioned Mao.

As for Trotsky, he was a failure and died in exile. That a large number of poseurs admire him is neither here nor there.

Similarly, communism and capitalism are indeed incompatible packages. One can't pick and choose from each package. That's why the US and its allies won the Cold War: capitalism was more efficient and effective than Soviet communism.

Individuals should make their opportunities. It's not up to governments to spend the taxes of productive individuals on rewarding people who are unwilling to get qualifications or, in way too many cases, are unwilling to work anyway and expect to be supported by those who do.

Small businesses create jobs. The owners know what any particular job is worth to them. It is certainly not up to small business owners to subsidise uneconomically high wages for employees. That would end in business failure and tears.

It's simple: revenue minus costs equals profit or loss. If the business is making a loss or too small a profit, it will fail. That is why the moronic idea of penalty rates has been a disaster: small businesses, in particular, simply can't carry the extra load, so they don't bother to open on, say, long weekends. The part-time or casual jobs employees relied upon disappear, the long term picture is lost jobs and lost income.

Here's an example from communist Kerala, India: a few years ago, government agencies decided to pay their employees an annual bonus with taxpayers' money. The government decided that private businesses should do that, too, forcing businesses, which had already entered employment agreements with each employee, to pay them an extra month's salary every year. Sound sustainable? Only to a communist.

Mind you, we now have the Turnbull government legislating a special tax for banks and trying to tell banks, via ASIC and APRA, how much they should pay their executives. Without trial or arbitration.

Calwest

‘As for "public opinion" in Russia, Hungary and the former East Germany, those are very dubious polls Killarney references. Such opinions are impressionistic, not based on any evidence or facts. Remember the good old days?’

If public opinion is ‘dubious’, why do we have so many opinion polls to measure it – especially before elections? Why are the advertising and public relations industries so influential? And as for nostalgia, those polls were taken only 20 years after the end of the Soviet Union. Not long enough in the average lifespan for amnesiac nostalgia to take hold.

Aidan

‘Yep, I think communism sounds like a good alternative! There is a security attached to it, (if behaviour is attuned)!’

Yes, financial incentive, initiative, ambition, entrepreneurial freedom and all that are well and good, but how many people place these as their highest priority in life? Only a small percentage of people in every generation are wired to be successful in a highly competitive commercial environment .

Much of the anti-communism brainwashing most Westerners receive from the cradle to the grave focuses obsessively on gulags, secret police and the suppression of freedoms and movement (which, according to people I’ve known who grew up under Communism, are highly exaggerated). This acts as a major fear-inducing distraction from the enormous advantages of the safety net and secure employment that virtually everyone enjoyed in communist countries.

As one man commented in the East German opinion poll cited in my last comment, the first time in his life that he ever encountered unemployment, poverty, homelessness and street begging was after the Berlin Wall fell.

Correction: It was diver dan I should have addressed my last comment to, not Aidan.

Dear Killarney,

«and secure employment that virtually everyone enjoyed in communist countries.»

That is, whether or not they wanted to work (especially when having no ability to choose the type, conditions, companions, risks and hours of work).

You might have enjoyed it, but it is called 'slavery'.

Actually, the first Australian convicts also "enjoyed" this "privilege" of zero unemployment.