calwest,
Nationalist China and Communist China are not the same thing. The former refers to the Republic Of China, which used to control mainland China before the communists overthrew it and the nationalists retreated to Taiwan. Though the ROC is now a democracy, it was certainly totalitarian under Chiang Kai-shek's rule.

That Trotsky was a failure is neither here nor there - after all, his apparently successful contemporaries also ultimately failed. Communists think they can succeed where others have failed, so Trotsky's failure is hardly likely to daunt them.

"Similarly, communism and capitalism are indeed incompatible packages. One can't pick and choose from each package."
Sweden did.
Indeed much of western Europe did!

"That's why the US and its allies won the Cold War: capitalism was more efficient and effective than Soviet communism."
I doubt it. Not the bit about efficiency ( I concur with that) but the Soviet Union really lost the Cold War when its economy collapsed as a result of keeping the Rouble above market value for too long.

(TBC tomorrow - I'm too tired to keep going tonight)

Yuyutsu

'That is, whether or not they wanted to work (especially when having no ability to choose the type, conditions, companions, risks and hours of work)./You might have enjoyed it, but it is called 'slavery'.'

Where do you get the idea that workers had no ability to choose the type, conditions, companions, risks and hours of work? I suspect you got this from the usual Western anti-communist propaganda that equates communism/socialism with slavery. I know several people who grew up under communism and none of them claim to have been restricted on the type of work they wanted to do. On the contrary, individual skills were highly prized.

The security of full employment allowed people to pay their bills - that is, the few bills they had to pay, as public services and utilities were financed by the state.

The real slavery is the Western capitalist debt system, inextricably linked to privatised services - from university education to home ownership, from privatised electricity providers to unaffordable rents and exorbitant health insurance premiums.

FMD there are some totally blind pro-Capitalist suckers on board this OLO ship of fantasy.

Killarney "The real slavery is the Western capitalist debt system, inextricably linked to privatised services - from university education to home ownership, from privatised electricity providers to unaffordable rents and exorbitant health insurance premiums."

Most of those costs are voluntary.
If you are a "slave" paying for your degree, mortgage, etc. you *chose* to take on that debt.
You were not *forced* to go to uni or buy a house, so you are no "slave".

Aidan,

I'm well aware of the history of the communist Chinese revolution. We were, however, discussing what you regard as the admirable theory and practice of communism, not the Chinese nationalists, which you introduced rather ambiguously. My assumption was that you were saying that Mao's communists were philosophically small "n" nationalists.

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

But now you're sliding to assert that Sweden and other western nations blended communism and capitalism, when in fact Swedes would claim to have introduced socialist ideas. There is no hegemony of the workers in Sweden; Sweden is not a one party state that bans dissent. Unlike communist states, Sweden has electoral democracy. It is anhistorical nonsense to claim Sweden adopted communism in any respect.

The history of communism has a core common thread: where communist parties have power, the system devolves into totalitarianism. Again I say Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ulbricht. All the joys of the KGB, the Stasi and the Red Guard. You're welcome to the lot, but please don't pretend you can defend them. And tell us again how irrational it is to despise communism.

Yuyutsu,

A 350 word comment is not scope enough for a scholarly essay, but, in fact, the economic failures of communism are on the historical record and no other condemnation is necessary. However, so are the numerous social failures, the disappearances, the jailings, the torture and the complete loss of civil liberties. I'd have thought that did not need to be repeated.

Killarney,

Do you know anything at all about opinion polling? Many are rigged.
Many are misinterpreted. I haven't bothered looking at the polls you linked because asking people about the good old days doesn't amount to anything worthwhile, it's just a vehicle for current whingers.

How big were the samples? What were the statistical margins of error in each poll? What were the questions? Who commissioned them and why?

yuyutsu

'If you are a "slave" paying for your degree, mortgage, etc. you *chose* to take on that debt./ You were not *forced* to go to uni or buy a house, so you are no "slave".'

You're making a false equivalence argument with 'chattel' slavery. Debt slavery works differently, whereby people are forced to go into debt in order to obtain the things that are necessary to survive in our current social system.

There are very few jobs now that do not require a degree or technical diploma just to enter the workforce. Those that don't are very low paid.

So too, the only alternative to owning your own home is being a lifelong tenant. By the time you hit your late 50s, if you do not own your own home, you are facing a very bleak future.

So too, many people fall back on their credit cards to finance the rising cost of the basic requirements for survival. For example, a flat-screen TV costs less than half the annual medical insurance premium or electricity bill for a family of 4.

As most people are not born to wealth, they have no choice but to go into debt. Over a lifetime, they pay out about 4 times their net worth in debt interest. And the bankers laugh all the way to their own banks.

calwest

If you didn't bother to look at the opinion poll links, then don't ask me questions about their methodology.