We should stop moslem immigration for now. A breathing space is needed.
The problem is that the Koran and the Immans tell them not to make
friends of non-moslems, to avoid dealing with infidels where possible.
This is a fundamental of the religion as far as I can see.
Now if we are to encourage them to liberal views it will be a waste
of time is we keep bringing in fresh supplies of old thinking.

Foxy said; ensure that ethnic enclaves are not created,

Unfortunately it is a matter of percentages. Even at 2% we have
enclaves forming. So far the percentage is small so they have not yet
formed sharia patrols as they have in London, Malmo and Paris.
Once it reaches that stage all is lost.

Grateful said; Actually its a beautiful religion.
Oh yes just like it is the most feminist religion !
Grateful said;
And they did all this with the encouragement of European powers,

Then what went wrong ? Why is the Middle East such a dismal failure ?

Mintoaur; Do they threaten you if you reject them ?
Foxy said;There is always wiggle room.

At a very great risk, ask Salman Rushdie and others.

That is generalized rubbish Bazz. And if you'd done at least a little research would know that two of those who thought it a good idea to try and do sharia patrols in London went to jail for what they did.

The vast majority of Muslims are great people, just like those of us with compassion for others and wanting to live the best life we possibly can. To tarnish all Muslims because of the actions of a very small minority is simply being a simpleton.

Well Minotaur, surveys have clearly shown you to be wrong.
There is a very strong assertion that sharia will be introduced and
some 60% in one survey that I read would act to introduce it.
As far as the patrols are concerned, the reluctance of the police to
act has been so obvious, then it was probably a token effort.
Perhaps now they do not wear their day glow vests.
They certainly do in some countries.
I will be interested to see some later information.
Of course they will promote sharia because they dare not say out loud
that they do not want it. We MUST presume they mean it.
It is not the Islamist way to give up any "progress".

Bazz

First, let me comment on the way in which this discussion is being conducted. I think most posts express one way or another a desire to understand and resolve problems as opposed to fermenting hatred and division.

Bazz when you say "We should stop moslem immigration for now. A breathing space is needed." I understand the sentiment but its not based on reason or an understanding of the problem.

When you say "The problem is that the Koran and the Immans tell them not to make friends of non-moslems, to avoid dealing with infidels where possible.", for me the only truth in this is that, like any parent, I do not want my children adopting the negative traits of others.

But this can apply to Muslims, who are following wayward ideology which declares takfir (to declare a Muslim a non-Muslim) on any Muslim who opposes their views, or non-Muslims who fail to see the harm in alcohol and promiscuity.

Let me offer an example. My young daughter has a cousin in her early 20s. She is non-Muslim and with a stereotypical Australian upbringing. Last week my niece tweeted an image of her laughing as her friend vomitted after too much drinking ('girls night out'). This is normal for Australians, and it was normal for me, but its not going to be normal for my children. I want my children protected from these destructive aspects of Australian culture...in fact i want Australian culture to discard these traits and take better care of its children.

cont..

cont...
Bazz
"Grateful said; Actually its a beautiful religion.
Oh yes just like it is the most feminist religion !
Grateful said;
And they did all this with the encouragement of European powers,

Then what went wrong ? Why is the Middle East such a dismal failure ?"

In her recent contribution to the bullying of Yassin Abdel-Magied, Amanda Vanstone wrote

"Ms Abdel-Magied started out with a credibility problem following a Q&A performance during which she made some, to me, inexplicable remarks about women and the Muslim religion."

In fact Abdel-Magied remarks are explicable. For example, Jim Garrison, author, executive and president of Ubiquity University, with a B.A in History from the University of Santa Clara, an MA in History of Religion from Harvard, and a PhD in Philosophical Theology from Cambridge (Huffington Post bio), had no qualms in describing the Prophet of Islam as “easily the most radical and empowering in his treatment of women. Arguably he was history’s first feminist. (‘Muhammad was a Feminist’, Huffington Post)

So why not debate with reason nd evidence and come to an understanding of peoples' point of view rather than belittle and demonise?

cont..

cont..

As for "Then what went wrong ? Why is the Middle East such a dismal failure ?"

In the first question there is the implication that if only ME rulers had followed the Western example everything would have been fine (eg. colonisation, dictatorships, 2 world wars, the holocaust, carpet bombing Cambodia to the stone-age and or course Iraq to name a few).

I recently dug up an old TV documentary, The World at War. The first episode opens with scenes what is now a ghost town. It was known as Oradour-sur-Glane. There the SS separated the men, placed them in barns, shot them in the legs so they could not walk and set the barns alight. They gathered the women and children and locked them in the church and set the church alight. Those who tried to escape were machine gunned. One person survived. Sound familiar? What went wrong?

For a complete answer to your question "What went wrong?" read Richard Bulliet's The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization. He devotes a chapter to critiquing Bernard Lewis's "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response"

The reality is from the 1800's rulers in Eygpt, Ottoman Empire and Persion DID emulated their Western counterparts (notably Napoleon) and current rulers are being sponsored by the West (notably Saudis).

So what went wrong? What is going wrong?

My general message is, let's not be sucked in by the propaganda. There are people who profit from this violence, anger and hatred. Some are small-time shock jocks, others are very rich people with an insatiable apetite for wealth and power.