Najia: Jayb my friend – On the contrary I do fit in. I fit in at work, in the neighbourhood, with other ethnic communities and society

Of course you do, as did my moslim friends at work, when I worked, You may fit in at home too. My friends at work held their Religious feelings close at work but when they were out, say Supermarket Shopping, very different. I run into one at a Supermarket. We engaged in conversation, but when I spoke to his wife he got upset with me & even worse when she answered me. He started screaming at her for humiliating him & speaking to an infidel. I had it happen at Robina one day too. She was shopping & he wouldn’t go into the Supermarket but waited outside, very agitated. I asked him what was wrong & it turns out that she was not directly with a relative & in there alone. Then he abused her for being too long. She came out with an overloaded cart.

This is the reality of Islam.

Najia: I nor any other Muslim I engage with in Australia want to see anyone die, be harmed or suffer.

I don’t think you are in that category but unfortunately, I think, most moslim men are. I guess it’s a holdover from their original countries where, women are even taken into battle because their neighbour will rape them if they are left behind. Maybe you “are” trying to assimilate & good for you. You do realize that it is against Islamic rules, don’t you? In another country that could get you stoned to death.

Najia: I don’t recall wanting Australians to be tolerant of Islam…

You, may not have, but all the Imams & others in authority (& on the ABC recently) do. There is no way that Islam can be tolerant of Australian or Western Values. It’s just not on.

Recently there has been a call from Imams overseas to kill any moderate Imams in Australia. The President of Turkey, “no such thing as a moderate moslim, Islam is Islam.”

cont

Najia: Jayb my friend – On the contrary I do fit in. I fit in at work, in the neighbourhood, with other ethnic communities and society

Of course you do, as did my moslim friends at work, when I worked, You may fit in at home too. My friends at work held their Religious feelings close at work but when they were out, say Supermarket Shopping, very different. I run into one at a Supermarket. We engaged in conversation, but when I spoke to his wife he got upset with me & even worse when she answered me. He started screaming at her for humiliating him & speaking to an infidel. I had it happen at Robina one day too. She was shopping & he wouldn’t go into the Supermarket but waited outside, very agitated. I asked him what was wrong & it turns out that she was not directly with a relative & in there alone. Then he abused her for being too long. She came out with an overloaded cart.

This is the twofaced reality if Islam.

Najia: I nor any other Muslim I engage with in Australia want to see anyone die, be harmed or suffer.

I don’t think you are in that category but unfortunately, I think, most moslim men are. I guess it’s a holdover from their original countries where, women are even taken into battle because their neighbour will rape them if they are left behind. Maybe you “are” trying to assimilate & good for you. You do realize that it is against Islamic rules, don’t you? In another country that could get you stoned to death.

Najia: I don’t recall wanting Australians to be tolerant of Islam…

You, may not have, but all the Imams & others in authority (& on the ABC recently) do. There is no way that Islam can be tolerant of Australian or Western Values. It’s just not on. Recently there has been a call from Imams overseas to kill any moderate Imam in Australia. the President of Turkey, “no such thing as a moderate moslim, Islam is Islam.”

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Dear Runner,

.

Many thanks for your definition of “secularism” and additional clarifications. I appreciate it.

I guess all we need now is to find another term for “separation of church and state”. I did some research on the internet and came across “disestablishmentarianism”, a word invented by the English in the 18th century that refers to "campaigns to sever links between church and state".

The campaign for “disestablishment” popped-up again in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.

I therefore propose we use the word “disestablishment” instead of “secularism” for “separation of church and state” in future correspondence.

What do you think ?

You ask :

« YOu are not suggesting that we have a moral conscience are you. If so where did it come from »

I only suggested that there must be a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word “secularism” and I quoted the OED definition.

However, you raise a fascinating question which I should be delighted to discuss with you if you wish. Suffice it to say, for the time being, that I understand morality to be a subtle mix of nature and nurture and that as altruism, empathy, sympathy and gratitude are its principal characteristics, other animal species appear to have been endowed with a similar faculty.

Morality has, of course, been a major inspiration to the world’s religions in the elaboration of their dogma, though subject to a multitude of variants and innovations.

You write :

« … someone from ISIS in charge of our airport … supporters of this religous cult should be discrimated against »

Agreed, but they don’t usually include ISIS in their CV when applying for the job.

You argue :

« The US secular courts had no problem discriminating against a baker who refuses to bake a cake for 'gay' wedding »

I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong end of the stick there, Runner. Here’s the real story :

http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/

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So, you like to be "consistent", Tony Lavis? And you have no idea on how to judge a religion? I thought that would have been self evident. You just apply the same standards as you do to judge any group of people united by a common ideology.

First you look at the ideology itself, and judge whether or not you consider it to be benign or dangerous. Then you look at the ideologies followers, the degree to which they conform to their ideology, and then decide whether they should be treated as friends or enemies.

If the US Constitution enshrined the idea that all non Protestents should be attacked, even those whom "God knoweth, but you knoweth not". And that these non Protestants should be either forcefully converted, or be killed or maimed, I don't think you would have any problem summoning up the brainpower to conclude that the US Constitution and the people who advocate it were very dangerous.

If you were "consistent", you would judge Muslims and their ideology with the same standards as you would judge Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

The fundamental ideology of Islam is quite clearly dangerous to non Muslims and even to Muslim females. It is a male dominated, misogynistic ideology which treats females as the property of men. It justifies the rape of women as a means of keeping them under male control. Surely you have the neuronal capacity to judge Islam based on those simple facts?

You can also judge Muslims by their collective behaviour and the economic and social success of Islam. One fact stands out. The more Muslim a nation is, the more intolerant, repressive, and dysfunctional it is. Even within western countries, 50% of Muslims are on welfare, and they make up a very disproportionate number of incarcerated criminals. If 50% of Nazis were on the dole, and Nazis were very disproportionately represented in violent crime and drug trafficking, I think you could summon up some criticism of Nazism and it's followers.

But you won't do the same thing to Muslims, because "consistent", you are not.

//it would seem that the awful stuff in the Koran is current practice.//

Did you read the article, Is Mise?

//The Prophet Muhammad taught Muslims that no-one can be a person of faith if his neighbour does not feel safe from him or her. Islam is the religion I choose to follow because contrary to existing beliefs it teaches Muslims good conduct, social interaction, justice and kindness...
I am your ordinary, middle-class, working mother that happens to be a practising Muslim who profoundly opposes terrorism and is ardently seeking harmony...
What I’d like to reaffirm to Senator Lambie and fellow Australians is that Sharia law is not part of Australian secular law nor is there any call to make any change.//

Doesn't seem like Ms. Turk is currently practising any that awful stuff, does it? The same goes for all the Muslims I've talked to. The ones practising the awful stuff are probably no more frequent than the likes of runner in the Christian community.

It's funny, because when runner goes about openly advocating for theocracy in Australia, we all just ignore him. But when Muslims go out of their way to point out that they prefer representative democracy, they get attacked for promoting theocracy even though they haven't. It's as if it's the messenger, and not the message, that determines the acceptability of the message.

And as for this rubbish about taqiyya... go ahead, keep on spinning that little mouse-wheel for all it's worth. It won't establish anything because circular reasoning never establishes anything, but you seem to be enjoying it.

Najia: I was hoping for tolerance and respect for all beings; Indigenous, minority groups, disability, refuges, migrants and every other group that makes up Australia or rather are Australians. My intent was to highlight the panellist’s lack of communication skill and knowledge around the topic of Sharia law.

I think you would find that most, not all, the Panellists do have a good knowledge of the Koran, The Hadith’s & Sharia Law. We do go looking things up for ourselves. Read the verses before & after to gain an insight into the meaning of the verses.

Najia: BTW – What’s Iftikhar?

Iftikha. Now there’s a character. He is a Professor of Islamic Studies. He was at Oxford. A Deen, I believe. Now he has his own Uni Course in London. A compatriot of Imam Anjem Choudary. Calling for the Destruction of British Society & to be replaced with Islam & Sharia Law in total. I had many conversations on here with him. Advocates, very strongly the three edicts, Conversion, Jizya or Death. This call has been made in Australia too by various Imams. Admittedly the Attacks in Australia have been described as Lone Wolf attacks, but all wolves belong to a Pack. The fear that most Australians feel is very real.

Najia, how do "you" feel about Apostates, Atheists, Gays, Christians, Jews? How does "Islam" feel about them?