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The Forum > Article Comments > Will the lights go out in Victoria or just industry? > Comments

Will the lights go out in Victoria or just industry? : Comments

By Tom Quirk and Paul Miskelly, published 14/2/2017

The real distortion to the system is the treatment of wind generated power.

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SR,

The single problem with your idea to plunder the gas companies after they have spent $bns developing an export market is that the companies have a right to sue the government for loss of profits.

The end result is that they will still be getting the same amount per unit of gas, except that the difference will be made up by the taxpayer.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 15 February 2017 6:01:50 PM
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Further to SM’s point, were Australia to mine its own gas as Alan B. suggests, there is a cost to that and a forgone royalty payment from a private miner. This is a part of the cost of burning gas.

I am not "ideologically" against renewables on the main grid, I'm economically and scientifically against them.

The infrastructure that supports them, including the fossil-fuelled full and partial backup requirement, means they fail to impact on CAGW.

Now I know I’m being unfair because everyone knows that storage capable of making renewables dispatchable 24/7/365 is just around the corner. Green politicians told us so.

Were there a existant a scalable, affordable storage solution, I'd be the first to get on board the dream. But there isn’t, and simply believing there will be is stupid and dangerous.

I am totally against wasting a single dollar on a non-solution. We have at hand something that has worked for over half a century, so we do not need to embark on fantasy.

SR, if you think you know something no one else knows on the storage front, share, but in all likelihood it has already been found wanting. The scale of such an enterprise, let alone cost, has to be appreciated first. Do you at least concede that storage is THE central issue surrounding any renewables approach to CAGW, not whether enough energy can be harvested?
Posted by Luciferase, Wednesday, 15 February 2017 7:56:19 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

So you are claiming by putting a 40 year ban on energy exports in order to ensure energy security and keep cost down for US businesses the successive administrations cost the their tax payers more than without such a ban?

Prove it.

As to businesses being able to sue governments for exercising their sovereign right to protect their economies and their citizens this is something your side of politics was so keen to sign up to with the TPP.

It is elitist, it is serving international corporations over local businesses and consumers, and it is ideological free market codswallop.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 16 February 2017 11:00:50 AM
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SR,

We were both previously discussing Aus not the US.

Secondly the Oil companies in the US are allowed to charge internally the same prices as imported Oil, and considering that the US was until recently a net importer of energy the ban was a non issue.

Thirdly, your segway into the TPP is an admission that you have lost the main argument, however, anyone with a smattering of economics understands that:

1 Businesses drive the economy, create jobs etc not government
2 Populist driven government forays into the market economy almost invariably create far more misery than they solve.(e.g. the live cattle debacle)

Contrary to you claims the TPP did not grant companies unlimited opportunities to sue the government, but simply laid down the parameters within which governments could reasonably act to create an environment conducive to investment employment and jobs.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 16 February 2017 2:14:42 PM
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If the cost of gas could be lowered the emission reductions achieved would be of little consequence wrt CAGW, so getting all hot and bothered about it is a sideshow.

If an affordable, scalable storage system miraculously presented, the EROEI of a manufactured renewables+storage system would still be so low as to require preposterously massive infrastructure to both maintain itself and deliver the growing needs of first world civilization.

EROEI is a proxy for CO2, ie a low EROEI means nearly as much CO2 is produced in manufacturing the infrastructure as is saved from being emitted during its working life as a replacement for coal-fired power. Utopia is reached when the renewables+storage system eventually breeds iself, leaving coal behind. So much has to go miraculously right for this to happen, starting with an astonishing storage discovery.
Posted by Luciferase, Friday, 17 February 2017 12:22:03 AM
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Margaret Thatcher once famously said, that "Socialism could never work, because sooner or later, the Socialists run out of other people's money to spend."

If she was alive today, she would probably say that "Socialism could never work, because sooner or later, the Socialists will run out of other people's coal generated baseline power to use."

Ever since Socialism's inception, the one fact about it which is as immutable as the Law of Gravity, is that they are so convinced that market forces equate to dining with the Devil, that they just can't run an economy. It is just incredible that each succeeding generation has to learn the same lesson over and over again. The only good thing that will come of this is that once again, the Socialists are going to be hurled from power in those left leaning, blacked out states who were stupid enough to believe the socialist promise, that voters could vote themselves money. And electricity.

Ten years from now, the next generation will have to relearn the same old lesson.

The most incredible aspect of the Socialist mindset, is that they utterly despise the money making means of gaining the finances they need to buy votes. They don't just want to exploit the Golden Goose, they really do want to kill it. And when it is dead, and they no longer have any means to buy votes, they blame those people who cherished and nourished their own Golden Geese, and demand that they share the golden eggs with them.
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 17 February 2017 6:17:06 PM
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