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The Forum > Article Comments > Dutch nursing home death - more excuses, more killing > Comments

Dutch nursing home death - more excuses, more killing : Comments

By Paul Russell, published 3/2/2017

So, what happens after a euthanasia or assisted suicide death occurs and the doctor is found not to have fulfilled one or more of the criteria set down in the law? There should be a charge of homicide.

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oh dear, how about you devote your energies to stopping kiddie fiddling priest.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Friday, 3 February 2017 8:24:25 AM
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It would not matter how well the letter of the law was followed, people like the author would still manage to find fault. It is their right to do so of course, but they would better spend their time looking at ways of helping the system, rather than all this negativity based on a minimal number of bad outcomes.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 3 February 2017 9:01:49 AM
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If you have ever worked with old people in nursing homes, people with advanced dementia, and other quality of life robbing conditions, you would be wiser.

These decisions are made daily in Australia and elsewhere, just not by regulation, but they are made, and euthanasia carried out, in a humane and sensitive way.

Advanced dementia equals no quality of life.
Posted by fool on hill, Friday, 3 February 2017 9:33:21 AM
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As always euthanasia advocate always want more? With the unstated hidden agenda being termination for those who are past their use by date, or too large a drain on family or national/taxpayer resources?

This outcome the well defined slippery slope (put down like a dog) you warned, the selectively deaf about, Paul!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 3 February 2017 10:29:10 AM
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Too much ideology, absolutely no compassion.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 3 February 2017 10:31:43 AM
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JAWOHL! Herr Vaku. And could have been taken straight from the pages of mein kampf? Dose juse are zuch cry babies!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 3 February 2017 10:35:34 AM
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Laws are never designed to help people - laws are designed to cover the legislators' bottoms. It is absurd for immoral and godless politicians, whose power rests on violence, to have a say on moral and ethical issues.

There are those who claim that states were created as a pact for mutual protection. That being the case, why should they be afraid to prove it by asking the people themselves whether at all they desire this "protection"?

Let those who opt for the state's protection be insured by the state against murder, euthanasia, and why not - even against obesity or falling off their bike.

But do allow those those who opt not for the state's protection, to be murdered or euthanased without worldly/legal consequences to the perpetrator(s).

The heavenly court makes no mistakes - the human courts do regularly err: for justice, I trust the heavenly court alone. Should I ever happen to be murdered or euthanased, I want no perpetrator to be judged and/or punished in my name by the state and its earthly courts.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 3 February 2017 12:43:37 PM
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Recently a double blind study into statins,{big parma's biggest profit earner,] found only those given the placebo did not suffer some cognitive impairment? And that the average extension of life by those given statins, was only an additional nine months?

It's a bit rich, first we give them medically acquired dementia David? Then use that as a reason to put them down? Citing lack of quality and compassion!

Now I know we've all heard the horror stories of projectile vomiting and what have you?

But it's caused by a (round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows) bacteria and spread by lack of adequate rudimentary hygiene and shared facilities, as a cost saving, profit improving measure?

Even so, hardly a reason to euthanize or worse, moronically feed the very bug with milk solids? And seek to solve problems created in house? With a "permenant" solution?

Recent advances in stroke treatment include direct injections into a damaged brain with stem cells! With truly remarkable early days results!

We need far better and vastly less costly preventive care, that keeps folk out of nursing homes indefinitely, particularly Dutch ones!
Alan B
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 3 February 2017 3:13:35 PM
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>Once you create a situation at law where killing of another person is allowed in certain circumstances

So, why aren't you banging in about war ? Or is it okay to kill those folk. We're over their droping bombs on peoples heads.
Posted by Valley Guy, Friday, 3 February 2017 5:03:22 PM
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the killing of the unborn was facilitated by argueing that poor 14 year old girl that was raped should not carry someone elses child. The dishonest and gullible followers has resulted in 100,000 plus children per year being butchered often for covenience sake. The emotional arguements and deceit of those argueing for killing oldies will be the same. The slippery slope is very clear but ignored as anyone pointing out the truth is demonised as demonstrated by posters here.
Posted by runner, Friday, 3 February 2017 5:13:57 PM
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I read the article and it struck a chord.
My mother is in a dementia wing of a nursing home
where I act as a volunteeer. To me the residents
and staff there have become like family. I know
them all by name. The staff are excellent, very
professional, caring, and compassionate. Extremely
well trained and nothing is too much trouble for them.
My mother and the other residents continue to
surprise. The programs are excellent. Especially
the music, and art programs. Then of course there are
others as well - all in all - very varied and catering
to the various stages that is dementia.

Mum has settled in very well and of course having family
contact consistently, helps.

I was horrified with what I read in the article.
I am not against euthanasia. However, I wopuld prefer it
was for terminally ill patients who are in great pain
and suffering with no hope of a cure. And safeguards should
always be in place to avoid situations like those described
in the article. From my own experience with dementia patients -
I would definitely not suggest euthanasia for any of them.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 February 2017 5:28:56 PM
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.

According to the latest statistics, a total of 1 611 people hung themselves in Australia in 2014.

In all, 2 864 people committed suicide that year.

Those are the clearly proven suicides. But, in addition, there were 6 460 “accidental” and “undetermined” deaths - including by hanging, “falling” off buildings and other “high places”, poisonings, and various other methods, too gruesome to be described in detail …

The statisticians note, somewhat candidly :

« It is possible that additional suicide deaths are contained within the intent categories of Accidental and Undetermined Intent, particularly for the mechanisms of poisoning and hanging »

In fact, suicide represents nearly 2% of all deaths in Australia each year. There were 153,580 deaths in Australia in 2014 and 159 052 in 2015.

Though life expectancy continues to increase in Australia, reaching 80.3 years of age for males and 84.4 years of age for females, suicide is the main cause of death of the 15 to 44 year olds.

I wonder how many of the 3 000 or so people who will hang or poison themselves, cut their veins, throw themselves off buildings, or lie down on railway tracks this year would prefer to die peacefully, calmly and painlessly in a warm, cosy environment … if that were possible !

Unfortunately, it’s not possible. The carnage will continue as long as euthanasia remains illegal in Australia. In fact, the carnage is getting worse.

Just too bad, I guess.

As Paul Russell (the author) says : look at what happened to that poor old lady in Holland !

Trust in God, my friend, then jump, hang ... or whatever.

Good luck !

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 4 February 2017 4:11:18 AM
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God won't help, after all, he did nothing to help Jesus.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Saturday, 4 February 2017 7:54:37 AM
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If you think the suicide rate is alarming, compare it with unexplained hospital or in care deaths. Conveniently written off as natural causes? And given a "Doctor's" signature on the death certificate, who may never ever have seen the patient? Usually unquestioned or unchallenged by dumbstruck rallies?

In any of our major hospitals, euthanasia is routine and practised daily as the end and foreseeable consequence of effective pain management?

So, all we need change here is to decriminalize effective compassionate pain management!

Besides, everybody has the right to make a living will, or their end of life, rule in/rule out, care management criteria. That can't ever include, giving any staff member the right to rifle through your belongings, or belt you senseless (on compassionate grounds) when discovered!

I'm also in favor of CCTV in every room or ward, not to exclude non existent privacy for patients, but eliminate the privacy of those who flout our laws, and perpetuate serial elder abuse? All while defending most vigorously, voluntary euthanasia?

The (tip of the iceberg) horror elder abuse stories emanating, particularly it would seem, from private, for profit, aged care, are beyond horrifying, as are the vetting standards of some of our aged care workers and their pious, butter wouldn't melt the mouth, public personas!?

Foxy's mum one of the lucky ones, with a caring daughter, watching her helpless back!

That said, let me say this, in my time I've had the rare privilege and inestimable honour to being cared for by veritable angels, for whom there aren't enough superlatives, which by the way, pertains to most of our overworked and under-rewarded health care workers!

Most of whom cannot be gagged, or are not afraid to say, this is not right, when it isn't!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 4 February 2017 10:08:15 AM
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The fact that many 15 (FIFTEEN) to 44 year olds as a demographic, want to top themselves for psychological (possible family rejection) problems? Is not ammunition for the euthanasia debate; but a cry for help and more funding for woefully underfunded mental health.

And another for the most ignorant folk on the planet, to take an objective look at mounting evidence that fairly shouts from the rooftops, YOU'RE WRONG! A bodies sexual bias is what you are, like left handedness, born with!

The fact that some moribund moron thinks that treatable temporary depression or anxiety neurosis, family estrangement etc/etc, ought to, might be solved with a "permenant solution", just reinforces the slippery slope argument!

What's next? Burying all our human relation problems, rather than manning up and honestly facing them/owning our own behavior in this ever changing, human dimensions, fluid tableau?
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 4 February 2017 6:47:09 PM
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.

Dear Alan B,

.

You wrote :

« In any of our major hospitals, euthanasia is routine and practised daily as the end and foreseeable consequence of effective pain management?

So, all we need change here is to decriminalize effective compassionate pain management! »
.

I’m pleased to hear that, Alan. I hope you are right and that it works to the satisfaction of all concerned. It’s a pity, though, that euthanasia remains illegal in Australia and that the medical staff have to break the law and risk prosecution simply for doing their job.

It should be generalised throughout the country to all hospitals, properly organised and strictly controlled in accordance with well-established protocols to avoid accidents and abuse.

Unfortunately, that is not going to happen any time soon. A large (albeit, steadily diminishing) majority of Australians continue to feel the need for religion to regulate their lives. A Roy Morgan Research poll in Oct -Dec 2013 indicates that 37.6% of Australians declared “no religion” (up from 30% in Jan-Mar 2009). Roughly 60% of Australians still need religion today.

If the current trend continues there is hope that we may be capable of facing reality and putting an end to our manifest judicial hypocrisy sometime during the 2030s.

Perhaps I should add that my definition of “euthanasia” is the literal definition of the word which derives from the Greek eu, “good” and Thanatos, “death”. In other words, euthanasia simply means a “good death”.

At the moment, it seems that all forms of intended and provoked “good deaths” are hypocritically considered desirable, acceptable and, as you say, “practised daily” in our major hospitals - despite the fact that we officially condemn them as being illegal. Whereas we have a totally different attitude to self-inflicted deaths or suicides.

Life and death are two sides of the same coin. If life is a fundamental human right, then death is too. Those of us who wish to end our lives, for whatever reason, should benefit from the same hypocrisy as the others.

In my opinion, there should be no discrimination.

Continued ...

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 5 February 2017 12:44:10 AM
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.

Continued …

.

You then wrote :

« The fact that many 15 (FIFTEEN) to 44 year olds as a demographic, want to top themselves for psychological (possible family rejection) problems .. is … a cry for help and more funding for woefully underfunded mental health »
.

Absolutely. And the problem is not getting any better. It’s getting worse !

The least we can do is to offer them a “good death” instead of a horrible, excruciating one, alone with their despair. That would give us the opportunity of showing them some humanity and offering them an alternative which some may be tempted to accept.

If not, we should respect their decision – failing which we would lose all credibility.

That is my carefully considered opinion at the time being, Alan. But it’s an extremely delicate matter and there is no straight forward, easy solution to it.

It’s a matter of life and death and my mind remains open to a more appropriate solution.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 5 February 2017 1:29:10 AM
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If a 15 year old wants to top themselves? We should help them to ensure it's not a horrible death?

Like say blood spattered all over the nice clean white bathroom tiles, when a distressed, demoralized, disturbed kid, with access to a firearm eats the weapon and blows his brain out, or takes a swan dive from a very high place, to dive head first into rock or pavement? They're just as dead!

And suffering, arguably non existent unless they fluff it.

That's not a solution! And just replaces the tormented suicide, with clinically clean murder!

Well at least there's no smelly mess to clean up afterward!

And underlines as nothing else can, why we need to reject Doctor death and his fatal (rocks off) obsession with topping folks off, indefinitely!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Sunday, 5 February 2017 6:25:02 PM
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.

Dear Alan B.,

.

I fully understand and share your distress at the fact that suicide is the main cause of death of the 15 to 44-year-olds in Australia - the so-called “lucky country”, of which we are so proud.

I agree that the suicide of a 15-year-old is particularly shocking. It is a clear sign that there is something very wrong with our society.

But suicide is just the final act. It is usually preceded by much pain and suffering - often from a very early age, perhaps even from (if not before) birth – until life becomes absolutely unbearable. And nobody is prepared to do anything about it. Nobody comes to the rescue. Nobody seems to even want to know about it. That is even more distressing.

In fact, according to the most recent statistics, in 2014, suicide was the leading cause of death of children between 5 and 17 years of age. There were no known suicides prior to age 5.

Not surprisingly, the highest age-specific suicide “death rate” (not number of deaths) for males in 2014 was observed in the 85 years and over age group (37.6 per 100,000 males). Whereas, more surprisingly (for me, at least), for females, the highest age-specific suicide “death rate” in 2014 was observed in the 35-39-year age group, with 9.2 deaths per 100,000.

And during the past 24 hours, Alan, since we have been having this brief discussion together, eight Australians have committed suicide.

I dearly regret that those eight people were not able to go to (or be taken to) the nearest hospital and receive the same humanitarian medical care as the terminally ill, if they had so wished – naturally, after having given due consideration to all other forms of aid, protection and assistance that a modern, caring society could possibly offer them.

We obviously did not provide the assistance they needed when they were alive and we were incapable of even offering them a "good death".

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 6 February 2017 7:49:09 AM
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Suicide is a complicated behaviour caused by
multiple factors. This is why further research
into the field of suicide prevention is so
important. The latest ABS stats show that 2,864
people died by suicide in 2014. This is more that
the national road toll.

The following telephone numbers may help those
in need of counselling:

Kids Helpline - 1800-55-1800
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Suicide Call Back Service - 1300 659 467
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 6 February 2017 10:08:44 AM
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