Brendan, I am a shooter and I cannot agree with your logic that Leyonhelm should not make a fuss. As you have outlined a seven shot lever action shotgun does not pose any special risk to the community and as a matter of principle and good evidence-based policy, that fact is all that should matter.

Despite the Federal Government's rhetoric that this is a "temporary import ban", by maintaining the ban until the states agree on a reclassification they are effectively responsible for the likely permanent recatagorisation to Category D of the gun, which is an effective ban for most shooters. Had the Federal Government not placed the export ban on the gun in the first place, this never would have happened.

The shooting community should not be allowing calls for bans based on misinformation and ignorance, to go unchallenged. If we roll over with the Adler, do you seriously think that the likes of Gun Control Australia will stop there? No, they will move onto the next class of firearm and find an opportunity to put governments under pressure by creating an illusionary threat, but this time with precedent behind them.

Leyonhelm is quite right to be robustly debating this issue in the public arena and I think it has improved the media and the public's understanding of firearms issues. I have seen a couple of news stories recently which soberly assess the technical capabilities of the firearm, in the case of Andrew Bolt the conclusions left him asking what all the fuss is about with this gun?

What Bolt did take issue with when he interviewed Leyonhelm, was his tactic of trying to blackmail the Government on unrelated legislation. I agree with Bolt on that, it is a Senator's job to review legislation on it's merits and Leyonhelm's approach of trying to corner the Government invites retaliation.

Being a bit bolshie aside I think that Leyonhelm has done the right thing in not simply rolling over on this and that all shooters should continue to support his efforts.

To AJ

You have disputed my premise that ethnic crime was very bad several times now. You once stated that the public's perception that ethnic crime was out of control was based entirely the "overwhelming evidence" of sensationalist media reportage. Here is your quote. What you wrote was so PC crazy I wrote it down.

"Having written an essay on the media's influence on the public's perception of crime, I can vouch for the overwhelming evidence in support of the proposition. So if you have any evidence to the contrary, then I'd be fascinated to see it. In my research, I could only find a couple of articles asking that we still exercise caution, and not jump to conclusions too quickly, despite the overwhelming evidence."

You also claimed that you wrote an article on racism. Which I thought was really funny, given that I have gotten writer's cramp trying to goad you into writing anything that could even be considered to be a reasoned argument. I begged you to post it up, but as usual, you slunk away. If you posted up an argument, you would have to defend it, and that would cramp your "just deny everything and attack everything" style of "debating."

Here it is, for your edification.

"By the way, I can reference all of my claims if you'd like. I recently wrote an essay on racism too, so I could easily refer you to about 20 peer-reviewed journal articles - complete with studies and further references - pointing you to where I get my information from, if you'd like to check the accuracy of any of my claims. Perhaps you could check the methodologies and conclusions of the studies conducted and point me to the shortcomings in them that are being conveniently overlooked by academics?"

I liked that. You won't present a reasoned argument yourself on OLO, even though you actually wrote an article for publication. Instead, you tell me to read a bunch of "studies" written by another bunch of PC eggheads like you.

LEGO,

In the quote you provided, the “proposition” that I said I could vouch for was that the perception that “ethnic criminal behaviour [was getting] out of control” was media-driven. Although, I wouldn’t say that it was “all” media-driven, as your (probably inaccurate) paraphrasing of what the AIC had allegedly said claimed. Obviously, a part of that perception is the fact that crime rates in many ethnic communities are higher. What the media tends to do is exaggerate that.

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol10is2/dowler.html
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.498.9883&rep=rep1&type=pdf

So can you tell me what exactly the AIC claimed now? I’ve asked you before, but all I heard was crickets chirping. (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17534#310247)

The essay I referred to in your second quote was an undergraduate assessment piece. I have never published a paper before. I’m not a professional academic.

<<You won't present a reasoned argument yourself on OLO, even though you actually wrote an article for publication.>>

I present reasoned arguments every time I counter one of your naive and ignorant assumptions. You’re just annoyed because I don’t boldly and foolishly assert the way you do. You want me to say that multiculturalism is a perfectly harmonious and beautiful thing, and that every human being is genetically identical. Which is what you need me to do so that you can distract from the weaknesses in your arguments by pointing out the absurdities in the above.

Speaking of evasiveness, though, you still have some unanswered challenges on the last thread. I guess you were looking for a fresh start, eh? Fine by me, if you want to derail another thread. We will almost certainly end up at the same unaddressed challenges again either way.

o sung wu,

My Brno double is a hammerless, ejector gun and being also double triggered, both barrels can be fired at once.

Starting with unloaded guns I'll fire 5 or 8 before the Adler can be loaded.
Starting with loaded weapons I'll still fire faster than an Adler or any other lever action shotgun with the possible exception of the .410 Winchester.
I'll go even further and say that starting from an unloaded position I'll fire 5 or 8 faster from a Greener Martini single shot gun than can be fired from an Adler.

Currently the best that I've done from a .22 Martini single shot rifle is 15 aimed and on target shots in a minute and loading .22s is fiddly compared to 12 gauge.

IS MISE...

Thank you for your clarification on your claim. It would be both improper and utterly unprofessionally of me to publicly dispute your claim ? That said, I think I'll need to realign my judgement on matters that hitherto, I've let go through to the keeper?

O sung wu,

Think about it, mate.
Starting with both guns loaded the first shot from the Adler goes in, say, 1/2 a second, the first and second shots from the Brno go in the same time, the Adler recycles and fires in say 1 second, it takes me 2 secs to reload and fire 2 shots, the Adler has now fired 3 shots, but I've fired 4 and 2 secs later I've fired a total of 6 shots but in the same time the Adler has only fired 5 and I can go on and fire a further 5 or more shots before the Adler can begin firing again.

Double barrel, hammerless, ejector shot guns have put up higher sustained rates of fire than semi-automatic guns and there are young blokes around who can fire at amazing rates from double hammer guns.
Just watch Western Action on U Tube.