Dear Dan,

It is certainly good to believe in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus - count your blessings!

But by discussing this with atheists you are playing with fire and if for whatever reason you are no longer able to believe, should this belief instead turn from a blessing into a curse? should you then drop your religion in despair? I think not and I hope it never happens!

As for God's intervention in history, I take it a step further: without God it is not possible to speak of history, or of anything else really. In fact, "without God" is a nonsensical combination of syllables: the only basis on which we can even begin to conceive of withness and withoutness, is God. The was-ness of any historical event or even the was-not-ness of other events, both depend on God's is-ness. Events could prove false, but God's is-ness which is identical with your am-ness is irrefutable and can never be undone.

I wasn't offering that the death and resurrection of Christ were merely 'good' events. They were essential events, if the Christian message has any meaning at all.

That is, without these events actually occurring, we could throw the whole book in the bin. As CS Lewis said (rough paraphrase,) Christianity can never just contain some good ideas. It will never be a little bit correct. It is either gloriously true, or gloriously entire nonsense.

God instigated all history (i.e. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. -
In the beginning [time]
God [person]
created [action/events]
the heavens [space]
and the earth [matter].
That just about covers it all, what else is there?)

He entered into history, and he speaks the truth about history.

Dear Dan,

My last comment was not about the merits of the crucifixion and ressurection of Jesus, but rather about the merit of YOU, Dan, believing in the above.
As I said, the fact that you believe is a blessing for you.

<<They were essential events, if the Christian message has any meaning at all.>>

Essential for what?
For the Christian message to have a meaning?
Why is that (having a meaning) important?

What IS truly important is whether the Christian message helps you to become a better person.
What IS truly important is whether the Christian message helps you to love thy fellow as thyself.
What is ultimately important is whether the Christian message helps you to be closer to God.
If it successfully achieves this, then who cares even if it has no meaning?!

<<That is, without these events actually occurring, we could throw the whole book in the bin.>>

How sad! Throwing the good book in the bin only because some events haven't occurred. What a waste!

<<It is either gloriously true, or gloriously entire nonsense.>>

Scary, dangerous stuff: suppose you become convinced by the atheists on this forum that the flood never occurred, then would you conclude that Jesus' teachings and resurrection were also entirely nonsense? would you then believe that all that's left for you is to eat, drink and be merry until the grime reaper takes your body away, that there's no longer a point in caring for anyone and anything else but your own bodily pleasures?

<<He entered into history>>

Have you read Genesis 1:2 in the original Hebrew?

"Veha'arets haytah TOHU VAVOHU".

"Tohu Vavohu" is commonly understood as either "chaotic" or "formless void", but if you split those words, "[O]to hu vavo hu", you get: "and the earth was the same Him and in Him it is".

As someone who lost their Christian beliefs because they couldn’t reconcile them with science, I know where Dan is coming from. So let me put it another way that I think Dan will agree with:

No Adam and Eve? No original sin. No original sin? No need for salvation. No need for salvation? No need for a saviour. No need for a saviour? No need for the resurrection.

And at that point, we throw the Bible in the bin. Which is exactly what I did.

To maintain his beliefs, all Dan has to do is deny all of the biological, geological and cosmological sciences (Okay, so it doesn’t sound so insignificant when you put it like that, but hear me out…).

Scientists believe that humans, as we know them, have been round for about 200,000 years. So if you’re a Christian and accept all the natural sciences, then here’s what you have to believe:

For 198,000 years, God sat back with total indifference and watched people being born (many dying in the process, including the mother); if they lived, then it was only to about 25 years old, which they then died in horrendous and painful ways as the result of war, famine, their teeth, or microorganisms that they didn’t know existed; natural events like earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis would have been mysterious and utterly terrifying; only for us to then make some small progress towards the end of it all with immense suffering and labour.

After 198,000 years, God finally decides that it’s time to intervene, and the only way he can think of to do this, is to come down in human form and offer himself in a filthy sacrifice in a remote and illiterate part of Palestine; the news of which has still not completely penetrated the rest of the world.

When you get rid of all the useless bits of religion (Yuyutsu’s beliefs), and all the false bits of religion (Dan’s beliefs), what you’re left with is good old secular humanism. There is no need for the rest.

Y,
So, even if I can't trust the Bible, I should still trust God (whoever that might be).

Is that a succinct summary of what you're saying?

The discussion between Dan and Yuyutsu is interesting to watch. The dynamics of the interaction are fascinating.

Here we have Dan (a creationist who understands that his theology comes crashing down if certain events in its narrative never occurred) being advised by Yuyutsu (a non-specific theist that leans towards Hinduism) that he should effectively stick his fingers in his ears and repeat, “La, la, la, la, I can’t hear you.”

Yet only the creationist understands why that’s not acceptable.

So concerned is Yuyutsu for Dan’s faith, that he is encouraging him to keep demonstrably false beliefs, some of which entail his own eternal torture for believing in the wrong god, because such beliefs will supposedly help bring Dan closer to his god.

What kind of a strange and hideous god is this anyway?

(And why is it that I keep proof-reading the above in David Attenborough’s voice?)

“[B]y discussing this with atheists you are playing with fire…” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18201#324939)

This goes down as one of my all-time favourite OLO quotes. Good to know that it’s nothing personal.

I’ll take that as compliment too, by the way.