Well said McReal. It is amazing to see a transformation in beliefs about homosexuality in many people when someone's own child or grandchild turns out to be gay.
I just wish this same compassion was felt by all, because being gay in today's society remains a challenge in many ways.

Loudmouth, you surely don't think that only the strict adherents to Islam and the Koran are alone in thinking that their brand of God and religion trumps any country's man-made laws? One only needs to read the responses of many on this forum to realize that fact.
I think that this is a problem with all religions and their imaginary gods...

Loudmouth lauds Peter Costello today Friday, 25 March, 9:59am

" .. There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution.

"Religion instructs its adherents on faith, morals and conscience, but there is not a separate system of law derived from religious sources that competes with or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society. The source of our law is the democratically elected legislature. Our State is a secular State. As such it can protect the freedom of all religions for worship."

Spot-on ! In Australia, we have achieved a separation of church and state, with state laws always prevailing."

Yet, state laws haven't prevailed with respect to suitable justice for child abuse at the hands of church individuals & its mishandling by authorities.

Loudmouth's pronouncements about Islam might, like Ben Brika's, might apply to elevation of Canon'Law' above state law.

that is why, to paraphrase Loudmouth, why there is " 'tension'between Christian believers and the Australian state".

And, one thing Costello doesn't address is freedom from religion.

McReal,

I was quoting Foxy, by the way.

Yes, state laws do operate in the case of child abuse by church personnel, but the wheels of justice grind slow sometimes. There are no church laws which are recognised by any state in Australia which protect abusers, and nor should there be.

'Canon law' or Shari'a law must never be recognised to have any effect whatever in Australia's civil society: the civil rights of all Australians, believers or not, must be protected by the State.

Hence the 'tension', McReal: one belief system holds that religion should eventually prevail over the State and all individuals, while the secular State MUST uphold the principle that it prevails totally over any religion and protects the rights of all individuals.

'Tension' ? It's more like undeclared war, as we shall learn in due course.

And freedom OF religion always includes freedom FROM religion, thankfully. There can be NO compulsion to believe in any secular state - isn't that obviously logical ?

Joe

Dear Joe,

While it is quite possible to not believe in any gods and the like, it is impossible to be free from religion, even more impossible than being able to live without oxygen - nevertheless, we should be able to be free from all organised religions as well as from all other organisations, states included.

Even if there were no organised religions whatsoever, there would still be no justification for any man-made laws that were devised by a particular group of people to prevail over others who never consented to belong to that group.

Hi Yuyutsu,

You're entitled to your opinion as an extreme anarchist. The state protects your right to such opinions, they won't jail you for them.

But like it or not, you ARE in this society. You have the protection of the laws regarding civil rights. You don't even have to do much to 'earn' that protection.

So how do you think you would go under Shari'a law ? Or strict Catholic Canon law ? Count your blessings :)

And how would any homosexuals go under Shari'a law ?

Yes, it's an irritatingly complex world: a lot of give and take, Yuyutsu.

Joe

Dear Joe,

So you consider the view that imposing oneself on others is wrong, as "extreme"?

All it takes to have this view is the principle of non-violence, or ahimsa: the same ancient principle that was promoted and followed by Mahatma Gandhi, the very first tenet and requisite of Hinduism, Buddhism and Yoga, without which spiritual progress is hardly possible.

In Western culture, this is often referred to as the "Golden Rule", which was also taught by Jesus, who on this date died on the cross to teach it. But of course we always knew Jesus to be an extreme radical!

As for Sharia and Catholic Canon laws, pointing one's finger at others and claiming that they are "even worse", is never a valid excuse for one's own bad actions.