Thanks Julian,

That really clarifies the dividing line between threats, incitement, vilification etc., and freedom of speech.

I have to say it makes what is at stake at the QUT much clearer. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Joe

Then everybody prejudges. Human beings judge without "adequate information" most of the time AJ. We have to make decisions about our personal safety, who we trust, who we trust with our kids, who we trust to represent us, who we trust to store or invest our money, who we should get into a car with, who we should hire, who we should allow to immigrate into our country, or who should be allowed to join our club.

We do not personally know everybody in the world, or have "adequate information" about everybody in the world, so we rely upon our knowledge of the classifications of people to form a judgment about the personal character of any unknown individual that we need to interact with. So we stereotype and prejudge them, as you have now done five times.

AJ wrote "You’ve also ignored my distinction between merely ‘thinking in stereotypes’, and moving past them in order to reason in more complex situations."

I ignored it because it is ridiculous. Everybody must simplify their concepts of people, objects, and situations in order to think about them. Everybody stereotypes to think. Everybody forms judgements about other groups of people, be they Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen, Creationists, fundamentalist Christians, criminal profilers, religious people in general, or even "vile" people who think like ttbn.

"Moving past" stereotypes means that you must say that a group of endothermatic vertebrates characterised by a beak or bill with no teeth, the laying of hard shelled eggs, a high metabolic rate, a lightweight but strong skeleton, and typically, the ability to fly", is adopting the pose of having it's legs folded with it's hindquarters on a road vehicle, which typically has four wheels, and is able to carry only a small but undetermined number of people"........ Instead of saying "a flock of birds is sitting on a car."

Saying that stereotyping and prejudging is wrong, is exactly like saying that thinking is wrong. Or saying that sex is wrong. Sex is not wrong, because just like stereotyping, prejudging and thinking, everybody does it.

LEGO,

Your first two paragraphs were the equivocation fallacy again.

The problem with the Equivocation fallacy is that some idiot might come along and think that it is therefore alright to claim that all blacks are dumb (as if it were no different to unconsciously visualising what one considers to be a typical looking tree) bait the unsuspecting by proudly declaring a themselves a racist, and then - thinking that he's smart when he then points out that everybody prejudges and stereotypes - imply that his detractors are hypocrites.

<<So we stereotype and prejudge them, as you have now done five times.>>

There’s another lie and I already demonstrated that it was a lie in my last post.

<<I ignored it because it is ridiculous. Everybody must simplify their concepts of people, [etc.]…>>

What I said was not ridiculous at all. It was a valid distinction (ignored in your committing of the Equivocation fallacy) that I just gave an example of in my last post:

"...you make out as if saying, "The only aboriginal people who appear to me to have any brains, are those who have had a dose of white genes injected into their mothers wombs." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4490#43534), is just as acceptable as, say, a stereotypical image of a tree automatically springing to one’s mind when one thinks of what a typical tree looks like." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17995#320037)

Arguing that everybody must simplify their concepts of people, etc. doesn’t not invalidate what I said. My point still stands.

<<Everybody stereotypes to think.>>

“Or they can use concepts, which are not oversimplified.” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17896#318204)

<<Everybody forms judgements about other groups of people, be they Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen, Creationists, fundamentalist Christians, criminal profilers, religious people in general, or even "vile" people who think like ttbn.>>

Now you’ve switched from prejudgements/prejudice to mere judgements - which are perfectly fine. Hang on, I just had a sense of déjà vu. Oh, that’s right…

“…you’re supposed to be responding to prejudice here, according to your quote of mine.” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17896#318783)

Continued...

Continued...

By the way, your insinuation there constitutes another five lies. No, no. Don’t worry, I’ll keep tally of them. We’re at fifteen now.

<<Moving past" stereotypes means that you must say that a group of endothermatic vertebrates characterised by … Instead of saying "a flock of birds is sitting on a car.>>

No, because saying “birds” isn’t an over simplification.

<<Saying that stereotyping and prejudging is wrong, is exactly like saying that thinking is wrong.>>

"No, because not all thinking is done in stereotypes. Stereotypes are mental shortcuts that are not always taken." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17896#318011)

<<Or saying that sex is wrong. Sex is not wrong, because just like stereotyping, prejudging and thinking, everybody does it.>>

"Another fallacious appeal to nature and common practice." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17896#318784)

Total lies: 15
Total fallacies: 3

AJ wrote "The problem with the Equivocation fallacy is that some idiot might come along and think that it is therefore alright to claim that all blacks are dumb.........."

Or claim that racism was wrong, but will not debate from a position that all races are equal. Or claims that aboriginal dysfunction is all the white man's fault, because it is all caused by white dispossession and discrimination. Claims he himself is against racism, but will not acknowledge his racism towards the white race. Ignores the harm which multiculturalism does to his own culture, and pretends that very disproportionate rates of serious ethnic criminal behaviour (which includes terrorism) is all a media beat up and a figment of the public's imagination.

AJ wrote "There’s another lie and I already demonstrated that it was a lie in my last post."

Of course you must pretend it is a lie. If you acknowledge the truth, then your entire position crashes in a heap. Better to keep claiming that black is somehow white, to keep up appearances and stay in the game.

Introduction to Psychology. page 282.

"Another means by which we construct memories is through the use of social stereotypes. A stereotype is a set of inferences about the personality traits or physical attributes of a whole class of people. We may, for example, have a stereotype of a typical German (intelligent, meticulous, serious), or the typical Italian (artistic, carefree, fun loving). These stereotypes rarely apply to many in that class, and can be misleading for social interaction. But our concerns are not with the effects of stereotypes on social interaction, but their effects on memory."

"When confronted with an unknown person, we sometimes stereotype that person (e.g. "He is a typical Italian") and then combine that information in our stereotype. Our memory of the person is thus partly constructed from the stereotype."

"Psychologists use the term schema to refer to the mental representation of a class of people, objects, events, or situations. Schemas are a type of stereotype in that they represent classes of people (Germans, Italians, or women athletes.)"

Understanding Psychology. page 101.

"Stereotypes are convenient mental short cuts employed by our perceptual system. Stereotypes then, are organising strategies based upon habits, experience, and cultural folklore that enable an individual to asses some new experience in their environment. Stereotyping involves identifying some salient feature of the object or event and using this to organise and predict other aspects of the event."

"An effective stereotype evoked by a particular stimulus should contain an enormous amount of information in order too assist in the recognition processes. What should constantly happen is that the "scientist" within us should carry out checks on the accuracy of the assessment and modify the stereotype as necessary. Habits, laziness, or rigid personality can prevent us from examining our store of stereotypes, and we tend to filter only the "right" information."

Saying that "Creationists have 19th century views" is a stereotype which you have used to make a prejudgement. It is a prejudgement that is accurate.

Saying that socialist humanitarians have 19th century views, is also a stereotype, and it is also a prejudgement. It is also accurate.

Tell a Creationist that science shows us that his 19th century views, that the world was created in 6 days is wrong, and he does not want to know. Put a bunch of Creationists together in a town like Dayton, Tennessee, and they will persecute the local high school science teacher who says that their beliefs are nonsense. Show one of them a museum full of fossils that prove his religion wrong, and he makes up stupid explanations to explain away what he fears to see. Faith in his religion is everything.

Tell a socialist humanitarian like AJ that his 19th century views, that people are all equal is nonsense, and he does not want to know. Put a bunch of Socialists together in a university and they will persecute any professor who says their beliefs are nonsense. Show AJ excerpts from scientific psychology books that prove that human beings stereotype to think, and he will come up with stupid explanations. Faith in AJ's belief system is everything.