I’m a Christian, but I find myself agreeing with most of Max’s argument. The churches as institutions can no longer expect to exercise much authority over public policy by virtue of their inherent authority or their interpretations of scripture. Even large numbers of self-described Christians are disregarding their teachings on social matters, as the low birth rates in Roman Catholic countries (suggesting widespread contraceptive use) and Ireland’s recent referendum vote for gay marriage attest.

If the churches want to argue for particular social policies – especially ones that apply coercively to everyone, believers or not - then they need to frame arguments that demonstrate why the community should accept that the policies are in its interests. “Leviticus says you shouldn’t” won’t cut it. They can still take principled stands based on Christian values, but if they can’t explain why those values are in the community interest they are probably on shaky theological ground anyway. The quote from T. David Gordon sums it up well.

Gandhi when asked what he thought about Christianity effectively replied, "I like Christ but not the Christians". As a Christian I agree with much the author wrote. It is up to me to try to demonstrate that Christ was who He said he was by what I do as a follower surely. China allegedly follows socialism however it is adroitly phrased by successive Party leaders as 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics'. This supposedly 'overcomes' any objections one may have as to why do they not follow their own Constitution on issues like freedom of speech, freedom of religion which is effectively only freedom if the Party is held to be 'God'. There are more Chinese Christians than the 70 million Communist Party members out of 1,300 million people and if they suffer more persecution the growth will be only be more rapid. The Party has replaced the emperors and the landowners as the ruling class but hey, Australia doesn't have a problem with that as it is not in our national interest to upset the hen that lays the golden resource-buying eggs [though the prices need to lift a bit and to hell with the Chinese economy problems otherwise Australians could suffer - shock horror!] Nor have successive Australian Prime Ministers EVER registered any real concerns about Indonesians 'colonizing' and raping resources and murdering 'freedom fighters' of West Papua. The sham 1,200 'representative vote' by Indonesia-'selected' indigenous leaders [encouraged by a gun on the table to vote in support of Indonesia taking over their country] was shock, horror endorsed by the United Nations and good 'ol John Kennedy who wanted to halt the possible threat of Communism taking over Indonesia. If one believes in Jesus Christ it would appropriate to say "Jesus wept!" If one doesn't believe perhaps change it to "Marx or Lenin or Bob Hawke, John Howard, Malcolm Fraser, Bob Brown et al wept!"

o sung wu clearly you are religious and not an Atheist as you suggest. Only the religious can read my post and not comprehend what I'm saying.

Clearly I don't think there is a God and so clearly I don't think god is to blame for the bad things that happen.

I was responding to runner typical silly religious comment that that the omnipresent god he believes in is responsible for all things... not a sparrow fall and all that.... however this omnipresent god is absent when evil is occurring. free will is shouted out "read runner post" as if that answer the question..how could a loving omnipresent god not intervene when a innocent child is being hurt?
I (the evil godless atheist) would intervene and even put my own safety at risk to save a child.But the likes of Runner want us to worship a god that can but chooses not to.

Give me a world run by the godless trying to make the world a better place every time, western culture is far superior to any theocratic hell hole.

This person calls himself a rationalist. How is it 'rational' to waste his time rabbiting on about things he doesn't believe in?
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 5 January 2016 9:54:38 AM

Religion is a societal issue.

//how could a loving omnipresent god not intervene when a innocent child is being hurt?
I (the evil godless atheist) would intervene and even put my own safety at risk to save a child.But the likes of Runner want us to worship a god that can but chooses not to.//

Ahh, the problem of evil. Runner has still yet to put up a sound theological defence against the problem of evil, but we live in hope.

If I had a choice betwixt preserving my own worthless life or saving the life of one my worthy nephews, I'd choose suicide every time.

But runner would have us believe in a supposedly beneficient God who won't lift a single omnipotent, omnipresent finger to save one innocent newborn dying of smallpox.

Awesome God, runner: he's either lazy or an asshole, possibly both, but you still choose to worship him. It says more about you than it does about your imaginary friend.

G'day there CORNONACOB...

I might seem to be a believer but I'm not. It's just that people who are atheists, non believers or whatever, are constantly having a shot at those who DO believe in something ? It's as if the non believers feel threatened in some way and the method they employ to assuage their fears are to belittle those who do derive some measure of comfort from their belief in their particular God?

In the early days we'd drive through the inner city parks, Hyde Park and others, where the poor old indigent blokes would be lying about usually pissed out of their brains. This one particular bloke who was called 'wingy' he had no hands and forearms, had his artificial prosthesis removed, because he was always assaulting others with the hooks at the end of his prosthesis!

Anyway this night around 0330-45h old wingy asked me what'll happen on his death? I told him because he had nobody and no assets, the State would bury him as a pauper (directed by the Coroner). Wingy was delighted with that news ? It was then he told me he had believed in his God all his life and being interred as a pauper was no big deal, because Jesus and God would be able to find him no matter where he was to be interred, even in lonely unmarked grave? Wingy died about four or five months after I was transferred from the Central LAC. I suppose the poor ol' bastard is handing out floggings with the stumps of his arms wherever he may be?