Who cares what Monk thinks about anything? Why even in places like thailand, a deeply buddhist country, with no Christian traditions per se, Christmas is becoming an important time for celebration, feasting and gift giving!

Let those who want to celebrate the festive season; and peace and goodwill to all men as they may?

I think fewer and fewer of us as swallowing the fairy tale that God came to earth as a mere mortal man.

The supposed reason we celebrate Christmas if at all, with its many pagan inclusions and impositions, making a mockery of the original reason for celebrating anything?

And a far as it goes for most Christians, I believe, all about control by the so called Church, given those many pagan inclusions?
Rhrosty.

The end of the book is very clear. Yep the deniers will fight to erase Christ from every place that reminds them of their need of salvation. Despite fighting tooth and nail against the One they claim not to believe in you can be sure that His church will be built and the gates of hell what prevail against it. The puny fist waving is pathetic at its best. Meanwhile they will be apologist for Islam and every other evil on the planet.

I read Paul's essay on the day it was published.I found it to be spot on re the almost universal celebration re the archetypal religious and cultural significance of Light - in terms of both the winter solstice, and the significance of Light as a Spiritual archetype altogether.
I also read Rowan's pathetic letter to the editor the day after.
That having been said this reference confirms the gist of Paul's essay.
http://global.adidam.org/books/danavira-mela/3

And of course Saint Jesus of Galilee, who was never ever in any sense a Christian, did not found or create an empire. In fact he specifically eschewed such an impulse via his teaching and lived demonstration of what he was teaching and his calling for his disciples to incarnate or duplicate.
Nor did he create the religion about him (aka Christian-ISM), every minute fragment of which was created by others, NONE of whom ever met Jesus up close and personal in a living-breathing-feeling body form.
This essay explains the origins and institutional political purposes of the "New" Testament. http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm

You really have to laugh out loud when anyone talks about an "empire of love".
ALL empires, without exception are created by the use of massive systematic violence. They are also sustained by massive violence, or the threat of massive violence to those who inevitably try to resist the imperatives of the empire. Such was the case with the British (christian) empire. See Britain's Empire by Richard Gott.
And of course all empires inevitably fall apart for one reason or another.

Gawd,the Bible is made up by who we are not sure maybe Dave Singer, the Gospels cant ever agree on JCs Birth year its bunkum somewhere between 6 BC and 5 AD the present historians say.
If people want to celebrate it Good luck to em but leave the BS out

We make a great deal of multiculturalism in this country. And we make a great deal on the Left of the religious liberties and dignity of Muslims. And fair enough! That is well and good. We also affirm the need to respect cultural groupings including minorities, and specifically including religious minorities. Let's not have double standards, therefore, when it comes to respecting the rights of Christians. And let's not just run roughshod over past traditions without considering what may be lost in the process.

All that said - who can deny that religion has been used as a means of disciplining and maintaining communities to be exploited in geo-political struggles? So respect peoples' rights - and engage enough to understand. Do not just ridicule and dismiss on the basis of 'straw men' and caricature. But be aware that religion, like nationality, culture and ideology - can be exploited for the very worst of motives. Even the best of Christians can find themselves being exploited and manipulated by the very worst of people - and for the very worst of reasons.

But that being the case consider the possibility that Jesus Christ would have wanted nothing to do with any of this. And deserves better than caricature.

I doubt anyone is really suggesting to take the Christ out of Christmas.
Christmas has become such a strong traditional, longstanding celebration for many countries, whether predominantly Christian or not, that it would be very unlikely that it would be 'banned' anytime soon in Australia.

One doesn't have to believe in any religion or God in order to celebrate the holiday season at the end of December. As the author and others have said, it is steeped in the history of the world long before Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth.

It doesn't really matter whether not many people know any of the historical reasons we celebrate this time of year, but is that really that important? If one remembers it because of a bloke called Jesus, or just because we have always celebrated this time of year as a time to return home to spend time with family, and to see the beginning of a new year, then that is ok as far as I am concerned.

Some people's desire to ignore the massive difference that Jesus of Nazareth made to the world (eg by taking the Christ out of Christmas) is ridiculous.

One perspective on this is in 'Where Did religious Freedom Come From?'
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/ReligionOutOfPolitics.htm#19_12_15

The view that a society's religion does not make a difference is naïve eg see
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/ReligionOutOfPolitics.htm#24_10_15
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/PhilosophyReligion.htm

test

Daffy very short on direct responses to specific points. Perhaps she/he could specifically address these (preferably without calling me "pathetic"):

1. Do you agree that if the Nativity, indeed the Christian faith, were "decoupled" from Christmas, the name "CHRISTmas" would no longer be applicable, and should be changed to some obscure, secular, solstice-based appellation? Any suggestions?
2. Do you agree with Andrew Masterson that "the real reason we could never do away with Christmas is commercial"? If so, how would you reconcile this with his heading, "There is more to this season than shopping"?
3. Paul Monk cited several ancient, obscure, solstice-based superstitions, of which he claims "Christmas is only one". How many are currently practised by how many Australians, on a remotely comparable scale or manner to that of Christianity? Probably very few, but just in case, a big "Hi" to all our Soyalangwullian readers.
4. What are the lasting legacies and benefits of any of these obscure superstitions that could compare with the lasting and ongoing benefits of Christianity, such as inspiring countless social reformers (e.g. Wilberforce, Booth, Barnardo); servants to the poor, the sick and the homeless; and pioneers in fields such as health and hospitals, care for the disabled (Helen Keller, Jean Vanier), education, prison reform (Charles Colson), hospice care (Cicely Saunders), and many more?
5. What are the Saturnalian or Junkanoon equivalents of the Red Cross, the Salvo's, Amnesty, World Vision, Opportunity International, Prison Fellowship, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, the Flying Doctor Service, and countless others?
6. On what grounds would you dismiss the emphatic affirmations by Napoleon and Einstein (and many other eminent historical figures) of the factual historicity of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth?
7. How likely is it that a faith based on a falsehood, a fraud or a fabrication would not only survive the most intense persecution imaginable (continuing today in many places), but would survive and thrive over 20 centuries to become the greatest religion in the world today?

Rowing Faster (Rowan Forster).
PS: I've told you my name. What's yours?

Dear Rowan,

<<7. How likely is it that a faith based on a falsehood, a fraud or a fabrication would not only survive the most intense persecution imaginable>>

Faith is an inner state of being, so it is not based on external factors. Unlike mere belief, faith never collapses once the thoughts it happens to incorporate prove incompatible with objective/sensory perception.

Christmas is based on good intentions: Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth, good will toward men.

Contrary, Xmas is based on evil intentions: the materialistic mockery of religion and the desire to empty people's pockets of their hard-earned savings (at best, in some cases even to enslave their futures to debt), so they always struggle to get more money and never have time for the spiritual. It has nothing to do with solstices and everything to do with contempt of God and the attempt to distract and steal away the hearts of His followers.

Christmas is therefore beautiful even if the words of carols fail to correspond with historical facts - while Xmas is ugly, even had the pranks about Santa and his reindeer in the north pole been absolutely correct and scientifically proven.

I've noted at least one person question whether or not Jesus Christ was born at Xmas time. Does anybody know what month of the year Jesus Christ was born in?

Dear Mr Opinion,

Dr Barbara Thiering in her book, "Jesus The Man:
A New Interpretation from the Dead Sea Scrolls,"
gives the date of Jesus's birth as March 7th B.C.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

If the records we have are correct, then Jesus was born during one of the three annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem, which are:

Passover: end of March - April
Pentecost: May-June
Tabernacles: September-October

(Julian dates vary each year as the festival is determined by the lunar calendar)

There are different scriptural and astronomical speculations in support of all three.

Yes around March-April. I recall during my undergrad Arts studies that the consensus amongst historians was April. And of course everyone knows that Xmas was derived from the Roman's Saturnalia festival which was all about feasting, gift-giving etc.

When I first saw the title I thought it was a protest at the using of
the XMAS usage. I have in previous times seen such objections.
In this case it was not but I thought an explanation of the use of X
might be of interest.
Xmas is a telegraphic abbreviation.
Mry Xmas es a hpy ny is another
73 is Best wishes
88 is love es kisses
the "es" is I believe French for "and" and is shorter in morse than and.

They were first used as far as I know by telegraph operators on the
US railways.
There are many others but over the years I have lost my list.
There are Q codes used for operational radio usage but the X etc codes
were quite informal but in very widespread use.
They were a big advantage when hundreds of thousands of mry xmas
telegrams were sent each year.

Anyway hpy ny 2 all.
dit dit

runner writes, "The end of the book is very clear. Yep the deniers will fight to erase Christ from every place that reminds them of their need of salvation."

Need of salvation? My, my, my, that threadbare furfy of being born in sin gets no rest, does it? The "scheme of things" as atheists see it, has no room for such dismal, melancholy self-flagellation. Does the martyrdom of original sin enhance your life, runner? Do you rejoice at the denigration of your life's worth, at the trashing of the act of love and joy that your parents engaged in to create you, that instead of a beautiful new human they created a soul-less bundle of sin?

This time of year celebrates the winter solstice and has been celebrated for millennia before the Abrahamic myths found currency. It matters not one whit how much doctrine and dogma, how much fantasy, allegory and legend, how many plagiarised moral injunctions, how lachrymose and hand-wringingly reluctant are the threats of eternal damnation, not one whit! I'll wager that when it comes to volumes of arcane commentary and concordance, Hinduism and Buddhism would give Christianity a run for its money.

"Meanwhile they will be apologist for Islam and every other evil on the planet."
Turning back on you a common query you and your ilk pose to atheists; What if you're wrong, runner. WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?
Ignore the question at your peril. Atheists are unfased by such questions.