Well said, Babette.

I wish that all Australian Christians were as concerned as you are about the plight of their persecuted brothers and sisters.

A former deputy leader of the Liberal Party of Australia, the Hon. Neil Brown QC, has castigated Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull for using ASIO director-general Duncan Lewis to phone Coalition backbench MPs to discourage them from "blaspheming" Islam.

Mr Brown wrote: "So now we know what life is really to be like under the Turnbull government.

"If MPs fall out of line with the government, they can expect a call from ASIO and if they still refuse to get into line after that warning, the implied threat is that they will have been noticed by ASIO and may be noticed in the future. To help ASIO along in this work, Malcolm Turnbull will apparently snitch on his colleagues and hand out their phone numbers.

"This must limit debate and severely diminish the proper role of members of parliament — to form their own opinions, speak freely and let the people judge them at the following election. The intervention of the PM is a serious breach of that convention and of our rights. It is alarming to see a prime minister using the security service in this manner and even more alarming that ASIO should allow itself to be so used." [Extract from Neil Brown's letter to The Australian, Dec 22, 2015].

There's a balance. A Labor MP commented about Tony Abbott not being a good example of his Church and was howled down. That's a personal attack on adherence to faith.
'I think it behoves Australians to recognise the backlash is something very, very dangerous … we need to be very temperate,' Mr Lewis said.
--
That is correct and lawful.

Mr Lewis also said: 'I don’t buy the notion the issue of Islamic ­extremism is in some way fostered or sponsored or supported by the Muslim religion. I think it’s blasphemous to the extent I can comment on someone else’s religion.'
----
Incorrect both times. Blasphemy is a subjective opinion not illegal.
If intemperate ,a comment is unlawful for incitement . And it's not for outsiders to compel Islam to change it's beliefs of conscience.
But "parliament" means "speak the mind" and the public service has no right to intrude on rational discussion , particularly with ASIO's $billions in clout of our funds.

Thank you Babette, you have given me the opportunity to once again completely disagree with a post of yours. In this case it is not just because you have distorted the facts as you do on all your anti-abortion posts, but because this particular piece is small-minded and derogatory.

Why do you think you have the right to tell people from another religion what they should believe and how they should act?

Actually, I can answer that question myself. You have obviously appointed yourself as the arbiter of how young women should live their lives, so extending this to the Muslim community should come as no surprise.

In terms of dealing with radical Islam, yelling at the community from the sidelines and disparaging their religion is unlikely to be a useful tactic.

Perhaps some thought should be given to why young people are allowing themselves to be radicalised by groups such as IS? The answer has precious little to do with religion.

In fact , Mahommad's doctrines survived because he won his swordfights. He planned major invasions prior to his death. The ambit was the world and those refusing submission to the god of great deaths were to be killed. The application to today's world can be discussed just as Luther and the popes held discussions, sometimes diverting into Olympic bloodbaths. The Koran is so ambiguous that Sunni faith needs libraries of commentaries to plug the gaps. So comment is familiar to ISIS. Constructive inter-facing with the network of war-workers is kosher

thanks Babette

Barnabas do a great job. Unfortunately Turnbull is a regressive and very cowardly when it comes to facing the truth on Islam. Those conservatives like Morrison need to grow a backbone. He for one knows the truth. Others like Bishop are only interested in their own careers. I dare say its going to take a France like incident (God forbid) to wake up the consciences of the self seekers.

Unless both sides of politics come to grips with the real causes of Islamic violence there will be more incidents. I can only beg our political leaders to quietly recognise that these problems are intrinsic to Islam. When this is recognised some progress will be made in dealing with the problems logically and effectively.

Yes, I was also under the impression that we would favour the most persecuted minorities, and was happy that we had decided to accept 12,000 refugees. Turnbull is really showing his ignorance of the dangers of Islam, or cowardice.

The main problem is that Islam does not favour assimilation. We see mounting evidence, in Australia and world-wide, that most home grown terrorists are second or third generation. The refugee is grateful to get away from the hell of the Middle-East, and behaves himself. The next generation, brainwashed in school at the "undeserved inferior position of Islam in the world at large", perhaps feeling ashamed of his low position in Western society, is ripe for Islamic State propaganda.

We should close down all religious schools, as they are all divisive in our increasingly secular society, but Islamic schools are especially dangerous. If these children were forced to mix with Australian kids all through their school years, and could see that a better way of life exists, most of the problems of home grown terrorism would surely disappear.

As it is, we are paying to indoctrinate these youngsters. In a compulsory "History of Religion" class, they could learn the truth about their prophet, and learn more mathematics and science, rather than wasting years studying the Koran.

Putin wants to indoctrinate school kids on national values ( someone else said that here recently). Invading Turkey 100 years ago as the definition of Oz oi oi Anzac may not go down that well with young Abdulah.
On the other hand , what is the "blasphemy" that upsets Lewis? There seems to be a marathon inquisition of all churches in the sex abuse witch-hunt /priest-hunt. With calls for no celibacy and a shake-up of bachelor pride. Isn't that "blasphemy"?

Thanks Babette for an excellent commentary. The incompatability of Islam
with other religious faiths and also the conflict between Sunni and Shia
over many centuries was and is well known and documented. Your mention of the one million who died in the 1947 partition of British India, and the brutality inflicted on Bangladesh etc are historically recent and should have been a warning re the consequences of non discriminatory multiculturalism under UN treaties which were fully ratified are very important.

It is beyond belief that given the recent events in Europe and the middle east that we have not withdrawn from these UN treaties and just initialled them.

In 1978 we formed a small group to publish the long term dangerous consequences. The ABC rejected all requests for debate, so I hired an actor to mimick Alf Garnet, who said our group was getting lots of donations etc. The ABC radio had me on for an hour and 80% of listeners supported us. We were invited onto radio and television major newspapers etc Suddenly we were never again invited ie there was no debate in our democracy. Pauline Hansen, professor Blainey Bruce Ruxton etc received the same treatment.

I have been trying to get local Christians to write to the local community newspapers re Christian persecution in the Middle East.WITHOUT success.

I have a 90% success rate so it is not difficult. That is why people like Babette Frances are so important, RobinL

Don't be ridiculous Babette.
You can't go around telling other religions what they should and shouldn't
have in their holy book. Don't you think that would cause more trouble than good?

If some young Muslims weren't radicalized before, they may well consider it if Christians like yourself suggest their holy book is 'wrong' or should be 'reformed'.
Who made Christians the religious or moral police on this planet anyway?

Those two young Muslim married couple who shot those people in the US recently were violent individuals who probably deserved what they got in the end, but they were really no more violent than the Christian pro-life terrorist who went on a shooting spree at the Planned Parenthood building in the US.

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The following article makes interesting
reading and presents another perspective
on what we as Australians should be
looking at doing:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-more-we-fear-islam-the-greater-the-danger-from-terrorists-20150515-gh2pvy.html

In reply to suseonline: Your assertion that Christians are as violent as Muslims is plain wrong. Violence is embedded in Islam to a vastly greater extent than any other religion.
From Morocco on the Atlantic coast to the southern Philippines there is a consistent level of violence and discrimination. The explosion of violence between Sunni and Shia in the middle east is one of the great tragedies in the last 100 years. 7 million people are refugees, and where do they flee? Many to Christian counties in Europe,
The examples you give of 'Christian' violence ( eg anti abortionist killings) are so trivial. However they do raise the issue of your psychology and motivation RobinL

There is far more violence in the Bible than in
the Quran, the idea that Islam imposed itself
by the sword is Western fiction fabricated during
the time of the Crusades when in fact it was
Western Christians who were fighting brutal Holy
Wars against Islam.

One needs to look at history and garner the facts.

Muslim grievances and frustration are exacerbated by
economic, political and social factors that lead to
violence.

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Gees, Foxy, how do you keep the wind out of your house?

Stick sheets of the SMH over the holes?

Dear Is Mise,

Here's some advice for you that you should take
to heart:

"You will never get to the end of the journey
if you stop to shy a stone at every dog that
barks."

It helps me.

Also I've discovered that there's a fine line
between eccentrics and people who are just plain nuts.

Fox, "Muslim grievances and frustration are exacerbated by economic, political and social factors that lead to violence"

So in Sweden, which is now referred to as the rape capital of Europe, women are somehow blameworthy for the rapes committed against them by Islamists? - Men who are economic migrants and are already taking advantage of the Swedish taxpayer and will be doing so for life.

The Swedish government has cleverly chosen not to collect stats and to refer to the offenders as Swedes. It is the 'Ostrich' strategy, which apologists would recommend as tres 'Progressive'.

@robinL, Saturday, 2 January 2016 4:43:54 AM

Good post.

In reply to Foxy:
The New Testament is the epitome of non violence. It is an accurate interpretation of Christ's teachings
The Koran is riddled with calls to arms.......violence and fear are its foundation.

Your statement that the Crusades starting in 1095AD were an act of Christian violence against Muslims and Islam is wrong.

Muhammad died in 632AD The Christian Crusades began in 1095 a period of 463 years. In around 450AD there were about 700 catholic bishoprics in north Africa. 250 bishops attended the council of Carthage in 535AD. By 950AD there 40 bishops left and by 1050 only 5 left. The Bishops and their Christian communities were raped pilaged and murdered unless they converted to Islam.

And THIS IS BEFORE THE CRUSADES!!

You tell people to look at history and garner the facts. But you don't state any facts or figures!
You state that people like me live in glass houses and should not throw stones ie we do not read form opinions and express ideas.
But you yourself offer no factual rebuttal.
You refer to Muslim grievences/frustration caused by economic political and social factors....but again no facts figures or arguments. Name the countries . Are you talking about Germany Britain France Australia.......?? Or Syria Iraq Yemen Somaliland etc etc etc??

I will finali

Foxy,

"You will never get to the end of the journey
if you stop to shy a stone at every dog that
barks."

What a depth of profundity!!

continuing my comments to Foxy:
Why do you give no references verifiable facts and figures? My hypothesis is that many people, young and older have been indoctrinated at School and University by biased curricula/teaching that does not present two points of view. It is possible that political correctness is a type of 'religeous indoctrination'. It neither asks questions nor answers questions. It seems to have elements of fanaticism which give the person a type of self righteous gratification.

Over to you Foxy

Dear Is Mise,

We all struggle with profound issues.

Glad you got the message though.

Dear RobinI,

If you bothered to read the links I gave in my posts and
the subject matters that I suggested posters can Google
for themselves - you would have the facts and stats you're
after. Do your own research. I merely pointed the way.

To Foxy,
It is your responsibility to put a brief summary of facts and figures that support your statements. I put a brief listing of my facts, so rebut them factually and show I am wrong

Robin

RobinL "The examples you give of 'Christian' violence ( eg anti abortionist killings) are so trivial. However they do raise the issue of your psychology and motivation RobinL"

Charming, You have no idea about my psychology or motivation RobinL, but are merely trying to big note yourself and your supposedly superior opinions.
You must surely feel humble in your own presence?
My opinion is my own, whether you like it or not.

Maybe you would feel more comfortable in a predominantly Christian country, like Ireland maybe? Oh no, wait a minute, they have certainly had their violent times in that country, and now they have voted in gay marriage!

Let's look at the 2 world wars, where millions died. They were both started by and finished by predominantly Christian countries.
What about what the Germans did to the Jews?
I could go on, but I am bored now....

Dear Robini,

Kindly go back to page 2 of this discussion.
A link was given.
My position on the subject is quite clear.
As Suse stated earlier - its not brain
surgery for most intelligent Australians.

The following link may clarify things for you
as to what Muslims believe:

http://mic.com/articles/39669/3-simple-charts-that-explain-what-muslims-believe*.ozfzC2GNW

In reply to Foxy:

1. The SMH article by Michael Bachelard describing problems we are now having with Islamic immigration are exactly the arguments put 40 years ago in the public debate (which was suppressed by Govt and Media and Universities) on the future problems of multiculturalism.
Of course he now warns of these dangers........30-40 years too late.

2. Your three simple charts referred to on page 2 which you urge us to study are simplistic. Re the question of % support for Sharia law by the Muslim population in various countries. For instance Russia is coloured orange meaning 60%-79% of Russian Muslims want Sharia as the official religion and Law. This says to me that there are large political divisions within the Russian population
Astonishingly most of the Muslim Countries governed by Sharia are left blank! It could mean that no surveys were done because the Muslim Govts. forbade the surveys.

3. You strongly recommended that I and others read these articles to gain a better understanding.

4) You denigrated Christianity for being complicit in World Wars and mass murder. Modern Christianity fought against Prussian militarism,
Nazism, Communism and brought education, infrastructure, health to many countries in Africa and quite a few in Asia.

5)It was Christian countries in the British Empire and Commonwaelth that fought alone against Hitler in 1939-41, probably saving a Nazi hegemony over half the world.

6)It was the Christian countries in 1919-20 incl Australia that tried to stop the Bolsheviks from taking over Russia. They failed unfortunately and the result was Stalin murdered millions in labor camps.

7) America tried to save China from Communism in 1945-49 and failed.
The result was the greatest mass murder in history when Maotse Tung murdered 60 million by withdrawing the harvest in 1959-61 like Stalin did in 1930-33.

Good Luck

To Foxy

I recommend you read The Crisis of Islam by Bernard Lewis published 2003

Lewis was Professor of Middle eastern studies at Uni London 1949-74 and Prof Emeritus at Princeton since 1974. He is the author of 14 books on the Middle East Islam and Christianity,

RobinL

Gott mit uns, said Adolf to his Lutherans and Catholics so Stalin mobilised his Russian Orthodox Church and this means my blood which is given by Christians in memory of me every Sunday.

Dear Robini,

Thank You for the book you recommend.
I shall try to get a hold of a copy.

I can recommend for you a few more books -

1) Robert Conquest, "The Harvest of Sorrow,"
on the Ukrainian famine.

2) "Victims of Yalta," by Nikolai Tolstoy.

3) "The Minister and the Massacre,"
deals with Harold Macmillan and his involvement
in certain atrocities.

World War II produced tens of millions of victims.
Some were combatants, some civilian casualties of the war.
Others were victims of genocide planned by the warring
parties. Both the Nazis and the Communists had
committed unheard of cruelties. Concentration camps - on
both sides of the front operated at a high pitch prior to
and during the war years. While the USSR policy of mass
murder preceded that of Nazi Germany, most notably with the
artificial Ukrainian famine of 1932-33, the wholesale
destruction of the Russian peasantry, and intelligentsia in the
occupied territories as well, the Nazis
soon matched Soviet terror with their wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies and others, in
equal numbers, if not proportions of their populations.

While half of the criminals, the Nazis have been pursued all
over the world for their crimes, the other half, the
communist criminals, were allowed to go free. They were in effect,
given tacit permission to continue the operation of their
concentration camps, to expand their draconian system to
include psychiatric wards, thereby raising torture, suppression, and
murder to a science.

The fact that this process persisted was vividly disclosed to the
free world by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitzyn in his book, "The
Gulag Archipelago."

cont'd

I forgot to add that it was the Christian countries
that chose to turn a blind eye to the atrocities
committed by the Soviet Regime.

" They were in effect,given tacit permission to continue the operation of their concentration camps, to expand their draconian system toinclude psychiatric wards, thereby raising torture, suppression, and murder to a science."
Guantanamo Bay and Osama bin Laden's sad loss are is based in commie Cuba , God bless Obama and the Castro homeland and all that it stands for , praise the lord

' I forgot to add that it was the Christian countries
that chose to turn a blind eye to the atrocities
committed by the Soviet Regime.'

Oh I see Foxy we are a Christian nation when something goes wrong and a secular country when something goes right. The selective use of words by regressives can be very misleading.

runner
how about some choice selection of data :
Murders by Muslims in Oz.
Murders by Christians in Oz.

' nicknamenick

per head of population muslims murder rate much higher. Also Islam encourages death to infidel while Christ taught the opposite. Try and educate yourself.

To Foxy,

Surprise, Surprise!
I agree with everything you say regarding the evils of Communism. You references are impeccable.

Then you have inserted a small sentence saying the Christian countries
did not try and stop Communist atrocities.

I mentioned the support of White Russia in 1919/21 when Aust was awarded two Victoria Crosses.
Once the Communists won what could the Christian West do?
We gave unstinting support for the USSR in 1941-1945.
The USSR obtained the secrets of the atomic bomb via British & American traitors at Los Alamos. We could surely not risk and nuclear war. How do we defend the Ukraine.?
So it is up to you to say what should be done and what should not have been done!
Should we have overthrown Saddam Husein, Col Gadaffi, Fidel Castro etc etc
robinL

runner
Does bluster= fact? What figures show twice the murder rate by muslims ? Data actually shows the opposite per population ratio.
Robin
You're all over the place. The West supported USSR in WWII ...and so..
Christians invented and used the atom bomb. 2 points to the Church.
Ukraine war is Russian orthodox against Ukraine Orthodox. Beautiful.
Nazism and Commo arose in Christian Europe, (Marx wrote his stuff in British museum ). The Church immediately surfaced from below as the bad guys left.

Dear Robini,

The United States and the Soviet Union were always
constrained in the knowledge that if one side
pushes the other too far, nuclear war could result.

Consequently both countries test one another -
but only within the perceived limits of their mutual
tolerance. The Soviet Union and the US are generally careful
to avoid direct confrontation, and instead participate
openly or covertly in wars in other countries, often
through the use of foreign "proxy" forces, such as
the Cubans in Angola, or the Contras in Nicaragua.

Both countries , it seems, share an unwritten
understanding - essentially, that if a country is
already communist ruled, the Soviet Union will be
permitted to intervene to keep it that way. And if it is
non-communist, the US will be permitted to intervene
to maintain the status quo.

I won't discuss the subject of Vietnam, Afghanistan,
and others. I hope that this answers your question
regarding Saddam Hussein, Fidel Castro, et cetera.