Moderate religious believers can never put up more than a token resistance to religious extremism, because they justify their own beliefs in exactly the same way. If you really think that you are following the instructions of a Sky Boss, either directly or as interpreted to you by some intermediary, then you are severely limited in how much you can criticise people who think exactly the same thing. As I've said before, any atheist can show Islamic fundamentalists exactly where they are wrong: but that's something that no pope or imam or rabbi or pastor can do. Moderate religious belief is the medium that extremists swim in.

A positive contribution with a couple of unsupported claims, one being that the Paris terrorists were cowardly. Why? They were prepared to die for their beliefs. If they had been soldiers, police or civilians on our side, we would have called them heroes. But it makes us feel good about ourselves to smear activists with the charge of cowardice. Secondly, the claim that IS is based on a perverted reading of the Koran. What are they doing that isn't part of the foundation story of Islam, apart from making videos?

Gee way to go Asclepius, you want us to call these terrorist Brave or even Hero's! I don't think so there is nothing brave or heroic about shooting unarmed civilians.

As for the article and Jon J comments I agree. All religions and the Abraham ones in particular are full of fair tales to justify killing. you may decide to ignore parts of your religious books but its still in there.

Aesclepius,

Are you fair dinkum ? That if these mass-murderers 'had been soldiers, police or civilians on our side, we would have called them heroes.' In ISIS-held territory of course, but out here in the real world ? Are you suggesting that, no matter who does the killing, to murder 89 people at a concert is heroic ?

And it all has nothing to do with Islam ? So, like in the other 27,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11, when people shout 'allah akbar' and butcher or blow up or machine-gun or rape innocent, random people, they are not doing it in the name of Islam ?

You must be having a lend of us ?

Joe

Jon J, sorry but most Christians are moderate & can disprove islam better than an atheist. the scientific philosophy of:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Common_Sense_Realism was invented by enlightened, conservative Christians 300 years ago.

Asclepius, quite correct, they are misguided but heroic none the less.

Cobber the hound, Q, what about all the crimes committed in the name of atheistic, secular humamism by atheistic, secular humanists who were following their own religious dogma?

Loudmouth, he did NOT say that the heroes were NOT murdering in the name of islam, just that we should be honest enough to admit that they showed a misguided heroism in being willing to die for their faith. EVERYTHING you hold dear was given to you by enlightened, conservative, protesting Christians who were willing to die for their faith over the last 2,000 years.

Sorry Brian but every muslim terrorist who has ever committed an act of terrorism against the west was encouraged to do so by atheistic, secular humanists who invented multi-CULT-uralism. We need to solve this problem by first deporting ALL muslims, then deporting ALL atheistic, secular humanists. Then the rest of us can begin to repair the damage done to the land of OZ by atheistic, secular humanists & repaying the debts accumulated by atheistic, secular humanists. The Protestant Work Ethic is what made the "Common-Wealth of Australia" the great nation it was 100 years ago.

BOTTOM LINE THE LAND OF OZ WILL NEVER BE GREAT, UNTIL WE BECOME ENLIGHTENED, CONSERVATIVE, PROTESTING CHRISTIANS AGAIN.

Despite how many are 'non observant', Islam provides the way into extremism worldwide .Do we want to finish up in Australia like Western Europe? We are on the way and the only certain stopper is to restrict Muslim immigration. http://www.independentaustralian.com.au/node/291.

Imacentristmoderatenoreally,

But those Christians didn't murder innocent people in the name of Christ - if they did then they are most certainly not heroes. Those scum entered a concert hall knowing that few, if any, of their intended victims would be armed, and being very well-armed themselves.

How heroic could it ever be to machine-gun a crowd at a concert ? Get a grip on reality, for Christ's sake.

And that's from an atheist :)

Joe

We do have the right to say who comes here. If someone follows a medieval religion that is at odds with so many of our laws they should not be invited in. In fact they should be refused as not compatible with our current values.
They can go to so many places on the planet but not here.
Why we would entertain so many of these horrible types is just beyond me?

I would like to see proof that the Muslim majority is "non-observant". It seems to me that such a careless claim is merely another cover up or apology for Islam. As the 'majority' of Muslims keep to themselves and don't broadcast their thoughts on anything, this gentleman, like the rest of us, does not have a clue what the average 'moderate' Muslim is capable of or intends doing when the time is right. The jihads are only the tip of the iceberg.

Folks who gun down folks sitting in wheelchairs are not heroes, just craven cowards hiding their absolute evil behind some ghastly gory soap opera/evil incarnate con job.

When you die, your mortal remains stay here, so what goes to this paradise? Your spirit being?

So what can a spirit being, with less substance than smoke do with 72 "volunteering" vestil virgins all "dying" to serve?

Even so, there is no place in paradise for those who spill so much a a single drop of innocent blood!
Rhrosty.

Further examples of the gullible being swayed by religious belief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html?ir=Australia

It seems that we overlook the massive effect, created by the Saudis bankrolling the spread of their militant Wahhabi Islam, has had. This quite distinct from Islam lite, as was far more common. They clearly have alot to answer for, as they seemingly do it with impunity, under our very noses.

Another one of those “lets hold hands and say nice things to moderate Muslims and all will be well” articles.
Our leaders have reached out to so-called moderates for decades and it has worked out so well. Yeah, things are getting better and better.

Perhaps we should try something called “honesty” instead. We should tell Muslims we are offended by the hate and violence in the Quran, the evil deeds of Mohammad and the oppression in the Islamic world. Maybe it would cause them to consider the problems with their dogma, but probably not. It would make them mad, but they are already mad at us, so nothing changes and it continues to get worse.

There is nothing we can do to change Muslims, moderate or not. They are blind to facts, truth and reality. Worse yet, our leaders are also blind (or stupid or foolish). They continue to bring people to live with us who will cause problems, violence and death. We are doomed.

Indeed Kactuz,
We all need a history lesson.
The link below tells you why they are so reluctant to criticise Islam.
Have you all noticed, even if you are not a Christian or like me have
not been to church for many years, except weddings, that when you hear
about the slaughter of Christians, it raises a little extra angst in
you that you did not expect ?
That is history speaking to you from perhaps your DNA.

Read this, it will explain it. I knew a fair bit of West v Islamic
history or so I thought but this video (44 mins) is a real wake up call.

http://tinyurl.com/zkrv2nc

History has much more to tell you.

Every time another terrorist outrage involving Muslims murdering Westerners occur, the apologists of multiculturalism come out to tell us everything is wonderful. Even if I believed Morris's statistics (which I don't), the fact remains that the numbers of imported Muslims who want to murder the people of their adopted country are horrifying. This has never happened with any other racial or religious group.

Morris comes out with the already discredited concepts of the "moderate Muslim" and the opinion that recognising Muslims as an enemy is what ISIS wants us to do.

If there were any "moderate Muslims" around, one would have thought that the perfect opportunity to criticise their own religion was when that Nigerian court sentenced Armina Lawal to be stoned to death for adultery. All we heard from the so called "moderate Muslim majority" was a deafening silence. One Grand Mufti in Australia has shown how "moderate" he is by calling 9/11 "God's work against oppressors", and the rape of 70 Australian girls by Muslim race hate rape packs was all the fault of the "cat meat" Aussie sluts. The latest "moderate" one will not criticise ISIS, and his explanation for terrorism is that it is all the west's fault.

The President of Turkey has said that "There is no moderate Islam. Islam is Islam, and that's that."

Since when did “moderate” Muslims stop believing in Sharia Law? And when did they start believing in the separation of Church and state? When did they stop believing that apostates, homosexuals and critics of Islam should not be murdered?

Then Brian tries the todge that recognising Muslims as the enemy will drive them into the arms of ISIS. To start with that presumes that they are not already there. I thought that creating a world wide caliphate was central to being a Muslim? In any case, extend the logic to Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen and see how silly that logic is. We must not alienate Nazis or we will drive them into the arms of Hitler. We must not alienate Ku Klux Klansmen or we will make them racist.

How has government "sucked up" to Muslims other than failing to name the problem squarely?

We have to appeal in a very public way to Islamic youth, some the progeny of generations of Australian Muslims, and directly to their sense of belonging.

Whilst it is not easy right now for youth across the cultures in Australia, the particular lot of minorities should be to addressed with empathy. They have to know they are part of us, and I haven't seen anything government is doing to address them directly on that front, at any level.

Muslims are central to our security at home. If we fail in encompassing and enlisting them we will never have security, even if they are rounded up, as some posters here allude to without coming outright and saying it. Where else do they think their views must lead?

We have to believe that the vast majority of Australian Muslims are not extreme in their views, as is the case with Christians. We must let Muslim youth know they are a valuable and wanted part of us.

Talk of religion in our DNA, as if there exists a biological predisposition towards enmity in us, is stupid fighting talk. You can hear the drums beating between the lines on this and other threads on OLO, and I would ask some to take a chill pill and seek positive solutions.

Luciferase, you misunderstood my reference to DNA.
My reference is that not our actual DNA but a racial memory of the
Saracens, moslems or whatever prompted by the little history that we know.

I suggest you watch that link, then think again.

Lucifer,

There are two approaches:

1. You say most Muslim’s are moderate and “We must let Muslim youth know they are a valuable and wanted part of us”. So then it is the “be nice and hope for the best” option. This is what the West has been doing and the results are there for all to see.
2. the other option is to be honest and tell them that their religions stinks and that it promotes hate, violence and discrimination. The obvious consequence of this is to call for a stop to all Muslim immigration. Other than Geert in Holland, no major politician has been doing this.

Our leaders are brainless and spineless. They will continue to pretend Islam is not THE problem and things will get worse. Note that saying nice things to Muslims, or “reaching out to them” as it is often called, will change nothing because this approach ignores the real problem. Option 1 is what we will see as policy, alienation, death and violence by Muslims will follow. It is hopeless.

That link I gave explains why there is so much failure to call a spade a spade;
The weak kneed responses are to be expected and are a result of history.

http://tinyurl.com/zkrv2nc

Outrider, absolutely correct, the religion of hate must be resisted.

Loudmouth, "true Christianity and Friends of the Truth, reflecting terms used in the New Testament by members of the early Christian church"

"In the past, Quakers were known for their use of thou as an ordinary pronoun, refusal to participate in war, plain dress, refusal to swear oaths, opposition to slavery. Described as "natural capitalists" by the BBC, some Quakers founded non bank financial institutions, like Friends Provident; manufacturing companies including Clarks and the big three British confectionary makers Cadbury, Rowntree and Fry's; and philanthropic efforts, including abolition of slavery, prison reform, and social justice projects"

The truth is often ugly, awkward & inconvenient. 1, NO christian in world history ever killed anybody in anything other than self defence. 2, those brain washed disciples of the religion of hate knew, that when they shot innocent civilians that the authorities would be called, send the SWAT & SAS teams to kill them. they were misguided but in their own sick way they were brave.

JBowyer, time for tough love, they can stay in islamic paradise.

ttbn, too true, radicals behead you, moderates move into your house after you are dead.

Rhosty, islam = devil worship, it is that simple. Muhammad is a disciple of Lucifer.

Ponder, there are both negative & positive religions. islam & left wing religion are both negative religions.

kactuz, have you read "United in Hate"? the answer is simple stop importing them & deport the muslims already here. STOP VOTING LIBERAL, LABOR, NATIONAL OR GREEN. support the ALA.

Bazz, correct here is Bill's official YouTube channel & link to the original videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZxScaEq2Ec&list=PL4x9dikGuldcmL8kA3iQq9Dh210GyPQKr

LEGO, correct, have you read "United in Hate"?

Luciferase, now there is an interesting name? deporting them is a positive solution. perhaps you would like to live in China, North Korea, Cuba or HELL?

Bazz, he won't, he is a brain washed, loyal member of the radical, extreme, left wing religious cult.

kactuz, our politicians aren't brainless or spineless but corrupt, they have sold you & your grand children out. join the ALA, ASAP.

Luciferase, I have had a rethink on the DNA.
I originally meant it as a simile, but as we have only just started to
learn about DNA and the brain, maybe there is some coding in there
that holds historical if not hysterical data.
It might be 100 years too soon to write that off.

Luciferase
You said - “We have to appeal in a very public way to Islamic youth, some the progeny of generations of Australian Muslims, and directly to their sense of belonging.

Whilst it is not easy right now for youth across the cultures in Australia, the particular lot of minorities should be to addressed with empathy. They have to know they are part of us, and I haven't seen anything government is doing to address them directly on that front, at any level”.

So a further $45M (of taxpayers’ money) recently given by the Government (to agencies) to address “youth radicalisation” isn’t enough – or nothing?

You said - We have to believe that the vast majority of Australian Muslims are not extreme in their views, as is the case with Christians. We must let Muslim youth know they are a valuable and wanted part of us.

With respect, it’s not the Christians engaging in terrorist activities. Christians are not running around with guns yelling out Allahu etc then try to take out as many “innocent victims” as they can.

All youth is important to Aussies, you need to ask – why are they being “radicalised”, who are the Imams filling their brains with hate for all Western Cultures.

Australia comprises many various religions and cultures, we all have lived in peace for many generations. We have never – in the past – had to spend many millions of dollars in “un-radicalising” our youth.

So in your opinion what’s changed?

Sorry, SAINTS, just coming back to OLO after torrid times.

What has changed, you asked. The technology to communicate ideology in ways youth are receptive to and the professionalism of salesmanship and marketing of the ideology. The receptiveness of youth has to be addressed as well as the modes of marketing employed by IS.

Let's see where money goes, if we get to know at all, and measure its effect upon the attitude of Muslim youth.

The primary problem is ideology and radicalization of youth, not killing off IS militarily, which is eminently achievable.

The direct appeal to youth as I advocate, and money spent directly at programs for them, and towards a globally funded cyber attack on IS, is where the focus should be. Muslim parents will appreciate the appeal and the programs and get actively onside and vigilant.

Regarding radical imams, winning over the Muslim community is key to rooting them out and interring them for the duration of the "conflict". That duration should not only include the military defeat of ISIS, but a fixed period of time after a period of peace from ISIS terrorist incidents transpires in the world. While interred, these imams should be reprogrammed, humanely.

You can't kill an idea, only limit its communication and effect.

Tony Abbott hit the nail on the head.
Islam needs a reconstruction. At present in the mosque the youth are
told that the Kuran says not to have infidels as friends, and not to
mix with them.

This is not something "we" can do anything about, it has to come from
within Islam and therefore requires a rewriting of the Koran.
However to do so is punishable by death.
That appears to be a genuine threat.

Of course the other major romantic attraction to Muslim youth is that a caliphate exists, for now at least, and all it needs is for them to join it. What spawned this was the mistreatment of Sunnis by Bhagdad after the overthrow of their dictator.

Crushing IS on the ground will go part of the way towards reducing its appeal.

Abbot's statement of the need for Islamic evolution is true but not a the solution to the current problem. It just exacerbates it, with Indonesia now upset for example. He's still a bull in a china-shop, with aspirations of charging back into the ring, methinks.

Luciferase

You say -

“Let's see where money goes, if we get to know at all, and measure its effect upon the attitude of Muslim youth”.

“ Muslim parents will appreciate the appeal and the programs and get actively onside and vigilant”.

So what is your response to the parents being “on board and “vigilant”” to the 15 year old teenager who killed Mr Cheng?

Why didn’t they know/recognise their child was becoming radicalised?..or did they not just care?

A further 15 year old was arrested a few days ago. At his bail hearing his father sobbed.

Really – where was his father in the past, to not notice (or care) his son was becoming radicalised. When such son was living in the family home?

“The young person has a criminal history of possessing firearms”. Ms Ryan said in refusing bail. Magistrate Ryan denied bail request after judging him a “high risk” to the safety of the community”. She also said she believed his family could not monitor the teen as closely as police had recommended, as both parents worked”. Telegraph 12/12/

What 15 year old has a “history” of possessing firearms – where were the parents?

This 15 year old was not acting alone, he was in concert with others.

His lawyer yesterday condemned the Court system for refusing his client bail, as such “child” should be allowed to return to his home.

Continued -

His Lawyer knows the following facts -

His client is a 15 year old with "alleged" “history” of possessing firearms.!

His client a 15 year old has been on a “terrorist” radar for over 12 months! So at what age was this “child” radicalised and no one in his family knew! Hullo parents - where were you?

His client a 15 year old "alleged" to be sending texts with words (or words purporting to) of “going to get to paradise with the use of a firearm”!

If this 15 year old was bailed, with full knowledge to the Court and his Lawyer, he was at “high risk” to the community, if he – and his cohorts subsequently – did commit an act of terrorism on Aussies with lives lost, what then would be the stand of his Lawyer?

I applaud Magistrate Ryan in taking her stand in refusing bail.

You say –

“You can't kill an idea, only limit its communication and effect”.

I disagree – I believe we can “kill the idea”, however, it won’t happen overnight.

Many of us Aussies are standing up for all cultures (who immigrated here) and in so doing, are embracing the lifestyle of Australia being - “living in peace and harmony”, which has occurred for many generations.

You say -

“and I would ask some to take a chill pill and seek positive solutions”.

With great respect Luciferase – we have taken our “chill pill”, we are seeking “positive solutions” – however, we won’t be “walked over” by those who seek to commit terrorist acts on innocent Australians.

Australians support – wholeheartedly - our Government, police and various agencies in “unearthing” those that walk among us who seek to commit any act of terrorism in the name of “any” – so called - religion.

Luciferase

You say -

"Of course the other major romantic attraction to Muslim youth is that a caliphate exists, for now at least, and all it needs is for them to join it. What spawned this was the mistreatment of Sunnis by Bhagdad after the overthrow of their dictator".

Really – what basis/evidence do you have/believe “the romantic attraction to Muslim youth is that a caliphate exists” for those Muslim followers in Australia.

Is this a fact – and is it being preached in Mosques by Imams to “our” youth?

Or do you have any further evidence/knowledge that we aren’t aware of.

So his father cried !
I have the feeling that the father knew what his son was doing and approved.
It is a common thread, mothers being proud of their son's activities
when they are caught or killed. We have all seen it on TV.
He had guns in the house, one a long shotgun, hardly something you
keep under the bed. The house being raided by police previously.

I will bet quids this is not the only such family in Sydney.

Hi Bazz

I agree and now time for all Aussies to support Government and the Court system.

Am tired of the (Lawyers) who continually request "would be if given a chance" terrorists at any age - bail.

Topping it off; At Cronulla;
the Left wing communists (German Party 1933) accusing
the anti-Islam party of being fascists, and trying hard to attack and
prevent them from speaking. Stalin would have been proud.
The NSW police were the only barrier to an attack on the anti-Islam group.

What surprises me is that Andrew Bolt was spot on, the left brigades
these days are unreconstructed communists.
Anyone that speaks other than the party line is violently attacked, by
a masked screaming crowd.
Haven't I seen old films about these sort of riots ?

SAINTS, you asked "So in your opinion what’s changed?
I gave a number of points in my opinion, for which you require evidence. It's self-evident? Communications, slick marketing and the fact of the extant caliphate.

I don't know why you'd think I don't also support the punitive approach to the problem (policing and courts). What I'm saying is it's not enough. We need the Muslim community onside, not the Reclaim Australia type rhetoric demonizing it and exacerbating the problem.

What are you saying that's better than what I am, that you have the final solution?

I've just come across this fascinating e-book:

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/books/Ibn%20Warraq%20-%20Why%20I%20Am%20Not%20a%20Muslim.pdf

called 'Why I am not a Muslim', by a passionate and courageous ex-Muslim. There is so much in it that I haven't got very far, but it has given me a much more sympathetic understanding of the predicament of Muslims in the modern world, and of their difficulties in breaking away from a reactionary mind-set and political structure.

Good holiday reading !

Joe

Back in the 1930's, in the UK. Public Order laws were made that prevented people from going masked so as to hide their identity. Now I bet these same laws were posted in Australia? The answer for demonstrators going masked should be immediate arrest for this offence.
Of course sleazy ambulance chaser lawyers make sure laws are forgotten and the coppers are not able to find their bottoms with both their hands.
The cops at least can claim they are ill educated and basically stupid the lawyers only defence is greed.

JBower

How true, I also think the same when people attend demonstrations/rallies for their "cause" - then cover their faces?

Some trying to start a fight with the police. All this being shown on TV.

At this time - they generally lose all public support and become just another "mob".

Sorry - JBowyer - spelt your name incorrectly.

In calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie in 1989, the Ayatollah Khomeini wrote:

"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled
and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries
so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world.
But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants
to conquer the whole w o r l d . . . .

"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend
that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says:
Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that
Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam
says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their
armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam
says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this
mean that we should surrender to the enemy?

"Islam says: Whatever good there
is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot
be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise,
which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other
[Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value
war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents
men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."

Good to know. So both Sunni and Shia are on the same page on this issue ? I loved that psychotic bit: "Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]?"

So unbelievers are out to get you, to kill you, so kill them first ? Fruitcake stuff. I look forward to the repudiation of this sort of fascist rubbish by 'moderate' Muslims.

Joe