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The Forum > Article Comments > 2016 is census year. But why do we bother? > Comments

2016 is census year. But why do we bother? : Comments

By Ross Elliott, published 1/12/2015

You can almost guarantee that sections of industry, media, think tanks and various lobby groups will either turn blind eyes to the findings, or find ways to contort the findings to suit their various agendas.

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Yet another case of coercion, where the state forces itself on everyone despite having harmed no one, just because they happen to reside on this continent.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 7:04:52 AM
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The Aussie census is "the essential reference point for demographers, economists, researchers, planners, governments and industry". Maybe, but it has occurred to me many times over the past 50 years or so that the futile efforts of such folk to use census data primarily to generate forecasts are unlikely to be worth the substantial cost, which of course would have to include the cost of those very same "demographers, economists, researchers, planners, governments and industry". Isn't there a contrarian statistician out there who is game to do a cost/benefit study of the efforts of the whole caboodle of people who devote their careers to this kind of thing? Would not our lives be happier and more exciting if we knew that we really don't know what's going to happen next rather than imagining that we do know?
Posted by Tombee, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 7:28:34 AM
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I'll be overseas during the census, and deliberately so. The government already intrudes into our lives to an alarming degree and I really couldn't be bothered supplying them with duplicates of what they already know and a few sprinkles of what is none of their business.
Posted by Mayan, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 7:56:19 AM
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Hi Yuyutsu,

Yes, and because they happen to use publicly-funded roads, water supplies and electricity. And if they are crook, publicly-funded hospitals. Have you ever used any of those ? Then quit complaining.

I always wait for Census results (probably not out for another 18-20 months) with excitement: every Census, it seems that Indigenous graduate numbers go up around 40-50 per cent over the previous Census five years before. By next August, or whenever the Census is held, Indigenous graduate numbers will probably exceed forty thousand.

At the previous Censuses, the numbers have been:

1991 - 3,660

1996 - 8,830

2001 - 13,241

2006 - 19,246

2011 - 29,404

Annual Commonwealth Education Department figures [on: https://www.education.gov.au/student-data ], if anything, under-count graduate numbers (and probably enrolment numbers as well), so 40,000 is certainly a probability.

I look forward to Indigenous 'leaders' in education, one day perhaps, catching up with the data, and making at least some minimal comment about those numbers, instead of using figures which are ten years out of date. Why do they do that ? Here I am, a useless old fart, who can find the latest figures, and they use ten-year-old figures. Why ? What do they have to gain by crying down the figures ? Surely they want MORE, not FEWER, graduates ? Surely they want 'mass Indigenous higher education success', and not to confine that success to a favoured few, such as themselves ? Surely not ?

Joe
www.firstsources.info
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 8:11:42 AM
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Why ? What do they have to gain by crying down the figures ? Surely they want MORE, not FEWER, graduates ? Surely they want 'mass Indigenous higher education success', and not to confine that success to a favoured few, such as themselves ? Surely not ?'

As in all victim industries, there will always be dogmatic claims of inequality, that will withstand the test of time and any attempt at re-examination.

You must also account for the expansion of definitions. I am sure many more people are considered indigenous than used to be the case.

As with all SJW efforts, the first battle is to convince people they are victims.

For instance, the first step in any anti-bullying campaign would be to expand the definition of bullying and convince people they are being bullied.
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 9:47:02 AM
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Yuyutsu, exactly this is the communist, matriarchal nanny state on steroids.

Tombee, HEAR, HEAR. every single thing done by property developers & the property council since WW2 has been regressive.

Mayan, YES, total waste of money.

Loudmouth, ye God's, Aboriginal Australians were better educated before 1972 than they are now. Governments do NOT need census data to collect taxes & provide services. ALL young Australians should be getting good education & career opportunities. The TRUE purpose of multi-CULT-uralism was to train Aboriginal people to think the stone age culture they had 200 years ago is superior to the traditional British culture that arrived 200 years ago.

Aboriginal people right now have a wonderful opportunity to reject the victimhood that communism taught them & improve their lives by becoming enlightened, conservative, protesting Christians. Then they will be able to learn from the best culture in world history, while not forgetting the best aspects of Aboriginal culture, marrying the 2 together & improving their lives.

The left wing, atheistic, secular humanists are in fact ANTI-human, want you to remain poor, on welfare & whinging.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 9:48:36 AM
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Aborigionals were here for thousands of years, and did not have a written language or assimilated language. Doesn’t that tell you that they want to be left alone. European amenities are not in their DNA.
Posted by 579, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 10:15:34 AM
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Hi Imustbeatotalwanker,

You make the outrageous claim that "Aboriginal Australians were better educated before 1972 than they are now."

University graduate numbers back then were barely in double figures, and now are around 40,000. Where is the slightest evidence for you ridiculous claim ?

But do you mean education of people in what used to be missions, but are now 'communities ' ? i.e. the education level of people, before lifelong welfare kicked in, was better ?

I'm inclined to agree with you: after all, if people will never need to get a job, they and their kids also will never really need any schooling, will they ? That's how the logic goes, ghastly and stupid as it may be.

That's what makes Noel Pearson's task so much harder in trying to get kids to stay at school. That's why authorities have to put in swimming pools, give free meals, let the boys kick a footy all bloody day, etc. just to persuade kids just to turn up.

So what might happen if BOTH all those 'persuasions' AND the right never to work were scrapped ? That all able-bodied people except mothers with kids should be required to either look for work, or do genuine study to get them into work ? Would that send a message to families to send their kids to school, because eventually they will have to work, and more schooling might mean a better job ? Or will they not see the connection ?

But so much water has flowed under the bridge now, the people have damaged themselves so much in terms of their health, their education and their employability, that maybe that would be disastrous. As well, of course the job market has dried up. Frankly, I think people in remote 'communities' are stuffed. And, on the whole, they have done it to themselves.

The Census: I'm betting Indigenous urban populations have risen much faster than remote populations, which may have actually declined - nd much of that population decline may be not just from out-migration, but actual decline in the birth-rate.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 10:22:44 AM
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Those of us who are interested in the history of our own families are very thankful that many of the censuses of the past have been saved.

I find that a country counting and classifying its citizenry to be a useful and logical exercise.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 10:39:11 AM
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Is Mise says "I find that a country counting and classifying its citizenry to be a useful and logical exercise."

You say that like it's a good thing. History shows that governments have a habit of misusing such information.

More generally, think about the questions asked (how far did you travel, what's your income and so forth) and ask yourself how likely it is that people will take a guess, say what they think will sound good (which is more likely given that the papers are now no longer destroyed), or just plain lie.

The government already snorks up vast amounts of information every day and Australian governments have not exactly been shy about data sharing and matching.
Posted by Mayan, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 11:07:17 AM
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The 'blind eye' this writer is probably talking about is the one hopefully turned on his greedy Property Council mates who are always wanting an excuse to develop and build more and more property that is not needed, but which fills their insatiable coffers.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 11:14:41 AM
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We need this census to know that affordable housing is a thing of the past, that the gap between the haves and the have nots is getting ever wider, with the concept of fairness further disappearing, and that even fewer income earning folk are shouldering our combined tax liability!

And instead of just creating a simple fail safe system ,where tax avoidance is impossible, i.e. an unavoidable but modest expenditure tax taken from all expenditure?

The government creates new layers of complexity to allow some of these practises to continue?

Even while they stand steadfast and solid and rant and rave against it and the raft of unfair practiss it gives rise to?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 11:39:03 AM
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I for one would not mind if the data was actually used for some real good.

Unfortunately our politicians spend our hard earned taxes so badly it makes a complete mockery of the census having any real use or benefit.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 12:22:44 PM
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We need a census every so often for the purposes of interested people wanting to study their family history.
These census's have been attended for over 200 years in Europe, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

Worrying about 'big brother' and 'communists' etc is sooo 1950's, and can be a sign of paranoia...
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 1:19:54 AM
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Dear Suse,

<<We need a census every so often for the purposes of interested people wanting to study their family history.>>

So if your grandmother doesn't want you to know about her, but rather sits at home (which happens to be in this continent) quietly all day and won't open the door to anyone, then you support sending people to repeatedly knock and disturb her peace, then ultimately if she still won't open, then you support them breaking her door down and if she still remains silent and doesn't answer their questions then you support them dragging your grandmother off to jail.

How nice...
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 2:08:56 PM
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Houellebecq, very well described.

579, if you are a disciple of left wing, atheistic, secular ANTI-humanism? why do you not understand evolution? have you ever heard of the term "indo-european languages"?

"This article contains characters used to write reconstructed Proto-Indo-European words. Proto-Indo-European (PIE) is the linguistic reconstruction of the common ancestor of the Indo-European languages"

You know people migrated out of the Indian sub continent travelled north & west to arrive in Europe. Well the Aboriginal people migrated out of the same Indian subcontinent to travel in the opposite direction south & east till they arrived in Australia where they were isolated, left alone for 60,000 years to do whatever they liked. Their culture did not need to evolve beyond the stone age because unlike the Greeks they did not have the Persians on one side & the Romans on the other. They did not have to compete or lift their game. There were plenty of kangaroos to eat, spearing them was easy, so they did not need bows & arrows.

Luckily for the Aboriginal people the kindest, gentlest colonial power in world history was the first to arrive in the land of OZ.

Loudmouth, when aboriginal children were educated at primary schools in the Christian missions, just like white children before 1972 they could read, rite & do rithmatic. They were capable of either doing a trade apprenticeship or going to university & many did. My own family was involved in doing this, namely arranging for Aboriginal children to go to boarding school in the big smoke, tech college & uni as well as holidays on the Sunshine coast.

Now Aboriginal youth like White youth are coming out of university with a degree but are still UN-employed.

Is Mise, but investigating your family history involves researching at the state government department of births, deaths & marriages, has NOTHING to do with the federal census bureau.

Mayan, exactly.

ttbn, true.

Rhosty, simpler = truer. complicated = less true.

Geoff of Perth, exactly.

Suseonline, defending ANTI-socialism as usual.

Yuyutsu, correct.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 6:47:39 PM
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"s Mise, but investigating your family history involves researching at the state government department of births, deaths & marriages, has NOTHING to do with the federal census bureau."

Where do you get the idea that family history is confined to NSW?
My family is in all states of the Commonwealth, Great Britain and the Continent.
Thankfully not all countries adopted the stupid Australian practice (now thankfully discontinued) of destroying census papers and in the fullness of time these will be available to researchers.

If certain politicians in the past had had their way all of the Convict Records would have been destroyed; as it was research was only by permission and with severe restrictions instead of the free access which we now enjoy.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 7:24:32 PM
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"Is Mise, but investigating your family history involves researching at the state government department of births, deaths & marriages, has NOTHING to do with the federal census bureau."

What a narrow idea you have of research!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 7:28:06 PM
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Gee Yuyutsu, you must have some very violent census officials in your area! I never heard of anyone being 'dragged out' if they didn't answer the door?
What are you frightened they will find Yuyutsu?

Is Mise, obviously no one else here has researched their family history.
I love finding my ancestors names on an old census, because you can find out so much information on them, including their addresses and occupations...from over a hundred years ago.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 8:44:08 PM
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Dear Suse,

<<Gee Yuyutsu, you must have some very violent census officials in your area! I never heard of anyone being 'dragged out' if they didn't answer the door?>>

Not the first time, not even the second - first they will just knock and stuff all sorts of forms and warnings and last-warnings and court-summons and fine-notices in your gradmother's letterbox, but after a few times, seeing that nobody took those papers or responded to them, they will eventually call the police who will eventually break the door. Then, if your grandmother ignores them and continues to sit and knit without answering the police's questions, she will be dragged away to prison.

<<What are you frightened they will find Yuyutsu?>>

How can I tell, Suse - I don't know your grandmother.

Perhaps there is indeed something she wants to hide? that's only one possibility.
Perhaps she took a vow of silence? that's just another possibility out of many.

I happen to actually know someone who was so traumatised by these questionings that she escaped and left her rented place without telling her new address to the landlord (the rent was paid) or anyone but her close family, so those officials will not be able to find and follow her.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 2 December 2015 10:11:28 PM
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Is that right Yuyutsu?
Why is answering a few questions such a trauma?
I agree though that no one should be forced to do anything against their will in these sorts of situations.
I just don't see why filling in census forms is such a drama though...
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 3 December 2015 1:13:32 AM
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Susie, are you pretending you don't understand that answering is not voluntary, or genuinely ignorant?

The question is not whether the information might be useful. Lots of things might be.

It's whether people should be forced or threatened against their will for you to get what you want, which is what you're arguing in favour of, remember?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Thursday, 3 December 2015 2:51:21 AM
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Jardine k Jardine, Susie lives in the "Kindergarden of Eden" she is leftist & feminist, therefore incapable of honesty or logical thought.

Suseonline, thank you for agreeing with me darling.

Yuyutsu, Susie will never be honest with you, she has brain washed herself with ANTI-socialism.

Is Mise, gee i never heard of the interweb? i did not know that you could search interstate departments? But are you saying that federal Polly Wafflers & public serpents lied to us all when they said our census papers were private? Are you saying my name address etc is kept attached to the forms so that my great, great children will be able to research my life 100 years from now?
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Thursday, 3 December 2015 4:24:54 AM
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imacentristmoderate,

"Is Mise, gee i never heard of the interweb? i did not know that you could search interstate departments?"

That's your problem!!

I have found the information contained in censuses to be useful and I was recently using the 1911 Census and to some effect.

I imagine that the Commonwealth censuses will be available in detail after the lapse of 100 years or so, as will be the record of your birth, marriage and any children after the lapse of the statutory periods.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 3 December 2015 8:15:53 AM
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Jardine, charming as usual I see.
Sometimes we have to do things we don't like to do, like filling in census papers...and interacting with you.

No one likes paying taxes, but we do it for the good of Australia and its people, so completing a census paper is not too much to ask reasonable people.
You can always fill it with 'c##p if you really object.
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 3 December 2015 9:35:00 AM
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Hi Suse,

I can't recall any questions on previous Census forms which were too intrusive - if anything, I was a bit pissed off that the questions asked were so few, and so superficial. I would have been quite happy to tell them a lot more if they'd only asked.

For instance - given my obsession with Indigenous higher education - I would love to know what general qualification (primary school, secondary school, university qualification) did the parents of an Indigenous graduate have, because I think that quite a high proportion of today's 16,000 Indigenous university students and 40,000 graduates have graduate parents, or at least one. That sort of thing.

And, as you say, if you don't like a question, you can always fudge it, so I'm told.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 3 December 2015 9:51:49 AM
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Susie, dishonest as usual I see.

If you weren't aware that it's morally wrong to force and threaten people to get what you want, you wouldn't have tried to deny and minimise and justify it when confronted with what you're doing.

Precious of you to be offended by words, when they only point out that you advocate people being physically attacked and threatened and harassed, for the grand high purpose of you doing family history.

And presumably you're fine with any other group or person getting any information they want in the same way?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Thursday, 3 December 2015 12:05:08 PM
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Dear Suse,

<<Why is answering a few questions such a trauma?>>

Well, if we were all rational beings like yourself then the world would have been such a boring place. In the case I mentioned, the person was highly sensitive and superstitious while the very insensitive pollster, in the particular way she came after dark and the threatening language she used, gave her the scare of her life and made her flee her home.

<<I just don't see why filling in census forms is such a drama though...>>

For most people, having sex is not a big drama, but when one is made to do it under threats, it suddenly becomes such a big deal... How irrational of us - isn't it the exact same activity?

Then of course there are those who took a vow of celibacy - and others who took a vow of silence.

<<You can always fill it with 'c##p if you really object>>

Take the case of Swami Kripalvananda: he was so keen on the principle of 'Satyam', or truthfulness, and so disgusted by his own failing at it due to the inaccuracy of his own everyday statements, that he made a vow and remained silent for the last 18 years of his life. This allowed him to reach the highest union with God just before he died. Now imagine what horror it would be for him if he lived in Australia and had to fill the census, in which it's so easy to tell a slight-untruth when none of the options fits exactly!

For you it may not matter, you seem to not even care if 100 years later you discovered incorrect information about your grand-grandmother who did the 'c##p thing, but for someone who devoted his life to perfect their avoidance of lying, that's devastating.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 3 December 2015 4:29:12 PM
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Well if we all refused to answer the questions on the annual tax form; 'nuff said!
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 7 December 2015 11:56:49 PM
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