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The Forum > Article Comments > Obama gives up on Bush's two-state solution > Comments

Obama gives up on Bush's two-state solution : Comments

By David Singer, published 20/11/2015

These two provisions – oozing unadulterated Jew-hatred – represent a permanent roadblock to ever concluding negotiations with the PLO under the Roadmap.

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The predatory principle, that whatever country one's forces invades, forever remains one's territory, poses some problems: if we take a country/region like Syria, which invader, out of dozens, has priority ? The Egyptians, Hittites, various Mesopotamians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, 'Latins', Arab Moslems, Turks of various sorts, Mongols, or French ? Perhaps Palestine, even more so.

So perhaps it was a wise move on Muhammad's part to get on his winged horse and fly to Jerusalem on his deathbed, to climb up Jacobs' ladder, the only way accepted generally then to get into Paradise, i.e. from above the ruins of Solomon's Temple - the 'Jewish sway', you might say. Handy things, winged horses: by flying there, Muhammad seems to have cemented Muslim claims to all of Jerusalem and thereby all of Palestine. Forever.

One question bugs me though: getting off his winged horse, did his feet touch the ground ?

I suppose it's easy to laugh at such absurdities, but they have had dreadful consequences.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 20 November 2015 9:14:37 AM
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Nobody could possibly expect anything but the worst behaviour from Obama. Unlike Bush, Obama is a slinking coward, who has denied America's rightful place as leader of the free world. The continuing problems in the Middle East and the world (Islamic terrorism) can be sheeted home directly to Obama himself, not America. A pure academic socialist, he ignores professional advice to 'get boots on the ground' ( now supported by our own non -academic socialist, Turnbull, sad to say), and the problem's, including Israel's will drag on until the end of his truly miserable, failed presidency is over. It's to be hoped that the American people will, next time, see past the emotions of electing a weak man for reasons of race and feel-good lumps in their throats.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 20 November 2015 10:09:40 AM
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The usual mistruths from singer.
It is not Obama that has trashed the two state solution it is israel.

Facts on the ground singer facts on the ground. Remember that?

Settlements, occupation, taking over Jerusalem, attacking the Al-Aqsa Mosque, midnight kidnappings by soldiers, bulldozing peoples homes, the wall, the prison of Gaza, israeli only roads, price tag attacks, checkpoints, permits, outrageous overreaction to hamas missiles, imprisonment without trial, more settlements, drones, weapons of mass destruction, constant lies and propaganda from shills like singer.

That is what killed the "two state solution".
Facts on the ground buddy. Facts on the ground!
Posted by mikk, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:19:06 AM
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Also tell me singer why should israel be recognised as a jewish state. A theocracy. A religiously ruled country for only one religion.

Should all religions get their own country? Should the mormons be able to succeed from the US and become religious republic of Utah? Should the Rastafarians have their own country? What about satanists? The quakers, the moonies, the hari krishnas. What about the trekies and the jedi?

What happens to the non religious or the ones who believe the wrong religion? How could it be possible for a theocracy to treat them other than as heathen unbelievers?

Isnt that why we have across the world overwhelmingly secular societies?
Where people can worship whatever they want and not fear repression or worse. And all people are treated equally despite what you might believe.
How is it that the jews are different from all the other religions in that they get to have their own country exclusively for them?
Posted by mikk, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:32:22 AM
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CETERUM CENESEO CARTHAGINEM ESSE DELENDAM!

Obama... woke up by a buzzing fly... ate bacon for breakfast to prove he's not a Muslim... took his children to the zoo... met Mrs. Netanyahu... talked about the rising prices of margarine... did some push-ups... danced on the ceiling... had a stomach upset... had to flush twice... changed his shirt... watered his garden... stepped on 35 ants (18 dead, 17 injured)... removed his dirty shoes... found a hole in his sock... was upset that dinner wasn't on time... turned the light off in the toilet and went to bed...

CETERUM CENESEO CARTHAGINEM ESSE DELENDAM!

Do not bother reading David's articles ever again: if you read one, then you read them all. There is just one thing he is here to say:

PUNISH ISRAEL AND JORDAN. FORCE THEM TO SWALLOW BETWEEN THEM THE POISONOUS WEST BANK.

David Singer hates both Israel and Jordan. Other than that he has nothing to say.

Furthermore, Carthago must be destroyed...
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:58:14 AM
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Ah Singer like Mr Magoo you've done it again,your ability to twist facts, outright lie, never condemn the Settlers for that matter anyone you is an Israeli and kills Arabs is an OK guy by you.
By the way Dave who founded Hamas I believe it was Israeli intelligence
Posted by John Ryan, Friday, 20 November 2015 12:36:43 PM
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Hi JOhn,

It's been a most revelatory week - yesterday Arjay informed us that the US had backed the Pol Pot regime, and now we have learnt that Mossad founded Hamas. Thanks for the heads-up.

Perhaps you can help me ...... I've been suspicious of the links between the Pope and Daesh, and their common purpose in destroying the social fabric of northern, Protestant Europe.

Thanking you in advance,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 20 November 2015 1:11:03 PM
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According to the usual anti-Semites it's always others who 'lie', not them.

I would have thought that mikk and John Ryan might have chosen to stand by Israel as Israel is the only country in the Middle East like us - a liberal democracy. It's generally a human trait to support people like ourselves, rather than those attacking them and wanting them wiped from the face of the Earth. I have to assume that both mikk and John are human, so perhaps it's liberal democracy they are against. If that is so, they must be asked why they are living in, and enjoying the benefits of, such a society. Should they not be living among their murderous Hamas and Arab compadres? Whatever their problem is, they certainly suffer from 'moral ambiguity' - not knowing right from wrong.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 20 November 2015 4:25:14 PM
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Hi ttbn,

Mikk and John Ryan may actually be onto something, the hiding of evidence. After all, think about this: with hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing from the Syria-Iraq region into Europe, do you ever hear about the hundreds of thousands fleeing to Saudi Arabia ? No ! We never hear about that ! Why is that ? Obviously, because they don't want us to know to know the Truth. And you have to ask yourself, why ?!

And who is obviously behind that suppression ? Obviously, the Chinese and their puppet Rupert Murdoch. Do you ever see any articles in The Australian about Syrian refugees being welcomed in Saudi Arabia ? No ! Never ! Have the Chinese ever said anything about Syrian refugees going to Saudi Arabia ? No, never ! Now, isn't that just too coincidental ?!

And, just to complete the puzzle, notice that Obama has never said a word about Syrians going to Saudi Arabia - THAT's the clincher. And we know that Obama is a secret Kenyan agent for Mossad, and therefore a double agent for Hamas which has always been a bitter rival of the Saudis. You KNOW it makes sense.

And although it is incredibly dangerous, to say so, what about the secret backing of the Pope, in his push for 'ecumenism' ? And the Swedish secret police orchestrating it all ? I've probably written too much already. If this is my last post, you'll know why.

If only people could put two and two together. I really despair at how obtuse everybody is but me.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 20 November 2015 4:46:29 PM
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ttbn
But it is not a "liberal democracy" is it. Singer says it is a jewish theocracy. The israelis say that everyone must recognise israel as a jewish state. How is that "liberal democracy"? More like Iran or Saudi Arabia. A religious state ruled by the mullahs/rabbis.

Right from wrong? Listen to yourself. Have you not seen the invasion, occupation, settlement, repression and killing that israel does. Right or wrong tt?
Posted by mikk, Friday, 20 November 2015 5:40:51 PM
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Hi Joe,

I hope it is not your last post. But it can get pretty tedious, the mass culture being what it is.

Regards,
Franc

mikk,

Of course Israel is a democracy. Denying that fact is absurd. And not all Israeli citizens are Jewish. There are Arab Israelis who enjoy exactly the same rights and freedoms as
all Israeli citizens. The Israeli Arabs seem to prefer a democratic Israel to the totalitarian. Arab/Muslim ones. You will even find Christians there. And what do you mean by invasion? The disputed territories are just that - disputed
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 21 November 2015 10:09:56 AM
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What is clear is that the liberal democracy that is the Israeli government is the only real democracy in the middle east, and is not a theocracy ruled by religious zealots as other ignorant posters like to suggest.

While Hamas and other Islamist nut jobs continue to commit and support atrocities in Israel, and the so call moderates support these atrocities, there is no chance of a peaceful solution.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 21 November 2015 12:17:54 PM
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Hi ttbn & SM,

There are around a million Arabs in Israel, I think, who can vote, stand for election, use all the standard public services, and if they wish, be exempted from military duty. Their numbers seem to be growing.

Question: are numbers of Jews, Christians etc., growing in any Muslim country ? Can they vote, or stand for election ? or use standard services ?

i.e. in any Muslim theocracy ?

And as long as Hamas and the PA support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel, as stalking horses for ISIS, they will never get my support. Period.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 21 November 2015 12:59:53 PM
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Due to Germany's and other Eurpean countries' naive invitation for 100,000s of "Syrian" refuges to crowd into Europe Australia agreed to take 12,000.

A big debate is going on that most into Australia should be the most oppressed minority Christians, Yazidis, Zoroastrians and Jews from Syria. Other liberal wets (like PM Turnbull) say Muslims should form a large proportion.

Australian government assurances that all Muslim refugees will be security checked [ http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/paris-attacks-stringent-checks-on-would-be-refugees/story-fni0cx12-1227610082698 ] before entry are rubbish.

Its the young Muslim refugee sons under 10 who form the greatest security threat once they grow up in Australia. By the time they are 16 they are easy meat for IS recruitment - mainly stabbing or shooting policemen in Australia...
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 21 November 2015 3:37:06 PM
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Off Topic

Turnbull is so out of touch that he also didn't know, yesterday, that Darwin Port is used by the Australian Navy and US Navy - so he thought it OK that a Chinese company can take over Darwin Port.

Turnbull's ignorance about the key Australian naval base of Darwin has disturbed Obama.

"IT’S no joke when a US president expresses concern about the Australian government’s failure to consult over what Washington sees as a security issue. America is still our most important ally by far....

Washington, the president said, would have appreciated a heads-up over a decision to hand control of the strategically important Port of Darwin for 99 years to a corporation said to be a commercial front for China’s military and communist party."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/darwin-port-oversight-lets-down-relations-with-most-important-ally/story-fni0cwl5-1227617617532

Basically the Chinese Navy will get prior warning of Australia ship and especially secret submarine movements. This gift to China has occurred on Turnbull's watch.

Turnbull is slipping. Maybe too much high life of a $100 millionaire in Sydney...
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 21 November 2015 3:46:30 PM
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#mikk

You ask:
"How is it that the jews are different from all the other religions in that they get to have their own country exclusively for them?"

As usual you are wrong.

1. Muslims have 57 countries virtually exclusively for them.

2. Jews have one country not exclusively for them in which 20% of the population are overwhelmingly Muslim and the remainder Christian.

Also I have never said Israel is a theocracy. Show me where I said that or withdraw the comment.

I might ask you to answer this question:
"Why do you hate Jews so much?"

#yuyutsu

Very impressed that you are now conversing in Latin

Pity you can't spell "CETERUM CENSEO CARTHAGINEM ESSE DELENDAM" properly

Spelling it wrong twice was a great feat.

With your apparent Latin skills now revealed for all to see and admire - you might care to spend some time delving into Roman history and tell the Jew-hating detractors frequenting OLO what the Latin terms "Aelia Capitolina", "Palestina Prima","Palestina Secunda","Palestina Tertia"and"Caesarea Maritima" mean.

#mikk and #John Ryan could be two to benefit from your research.

You continue to write so much rubbish about the West Bank. Perhaps you might finally desist if I politely tell you in Latin: "condemnant quod non intellegunt"

The best thing you can really do is take your own advice and tell #mikk and #John Ryan to do likewise:
"Do not bother reading David's articles ever again"
Posted by david singer, Saturday, 21 November 2015 9:41:21 PM
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Pete,

'Off topic' yes, but needing to be said. How out-of-control-and-Left is Turnbull when a pathetic Democrat like Obama has to take him to task for even thinking it was OK to hand over Darwin harbour to a potential enemy for 99 years. Being a millionaire doesn't require brains, apparently. It must be that silly grin.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 22 November 2015 10:30:00 AM
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Hi ttbn

Yes look at Turnbull's ignorant smirk
http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/the-nt-news-delivers-cracking-response-to-barack-obama/news-story/b2ea49819f86e2ab8579c4667b4d3f3c

The above news article goes on to say: "WHEN the world’s most powerful person asks to be kept in the loop, he probably isn’t expecting to be directed to Australia’s most irreverent newspaper. But that’s exactly what happened when US President Barack Obama had a quiet word to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull about the sale of the Port of Darwin.

Obama was reportedly disappointed that the US was not consulted on the sale of the port to a Chinese company as it is close to US military assets in the region.

Apparently he only found out about it after reading a report in the New York Times and asked Turnbull to “Let us know next time”."

Well I suppose once Turnbull gets bored playing at being PM (and the trips) he can return to his business interests.

Richer than Palmer, they say.
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 22 November 2015 10:57:33 AM
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Given an endlessly stalling Netanyahu is never ever going to agree to a real two state solution, I find myself largely agreeing with President Obama, and take issue with the vexatious and mischievous claim that his speech was loaded with anti jewish sentiment.

Risible rubbish, the last refuge of patent Jewish scoundrels! Enough with the endless excuses already! Stop with the prevaricating Mr.Nethanyahu and start with some real negotiations that simply don't include the usual escape clauses!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 22 November 2015 12:04:58 PM
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Pete,

Your lack of comparison on the gumption of the two gentleman shows your great restraint.

Cheers,
Franc
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 22 November 2015 12:06:59 PM
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#Rhrosty

The first two-state solution was laid out in 1922 by the League of Nations - when Israel did not exist - 78% of Palestine to the Arabs and the remaining 22% to the Jews.

The Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected this carve up.

In 1937 the Peel Commission recommended giving the Arabs more of the 22%. The Jews accepted and the Arabs again rejected this proposal.

In 1947 the UN recommended an Arab State be given even more of that 22%. The Jews accepted and the Arabs again rejected it.

Between 1948-1967 the Arabs occupied the whole of the West Bank,Gaza and East Jerusalem - having driven out every single Jew living there. They failed to create the Palestinian State they so crave today when it could have happened at any time in those 19 years without Israel's approval being required. They preferred instead to unify the West Bank and East Jerusalem with Transjordan to create a new country called Jordan - whilst leaving Gaza under Egyptian administration and control.

Ongoing negotiations over the last 20 years have failed to resolve the sovereignty of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem to create a third State in former Palestine - in addition to Israel and Jordan. The PLO wants 100% - not one square meter less. They demand capitulation - not negotiation.

There is and has always been one solution that could advance an end to the Jewish-Arab conflict - direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan - the two successor States to the Mandate For Palestine - to resolve sovereignty of the 5% of the Mandate territory - West Bank,East Jerusalem and Gaza - still remaining unallocated between them.

Obama and Kerry could well use the time remaining to them until the next elections to bring Israel and Jordan together for such negotiations.

The PLO has had 12 years to achieve the "two-state solution" proposed by the 2003 Bush Roadmap - and has failed.

Time to introduce Jordan as Israel's negotiating partner to negotiate the original "two-state solution" first laid out in 1922.
Posted by david singer, Sunday, 22 November 2015 1:39:08 PM
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Religion has been used to divide and conquer nations for centuries. People should just study philosophy and history.

Religion and the debt money creation system have to be the two biggest evils on the planet. This is what all these wars are about. Terrorism was created by the West so Islamic countries could be exploited for their resources and to remove the rights of their populations.Now the fight is over which currency will be the new global reserve.

Russia has taken control of its own central bank and China has many Govt banks. Our Central banks don't like the competition. They want WW3 over whose piece of fiat paper should dominate and whose imaginary supreme being should enslave their people.Rather morbidly insane but few recognise the reality
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 22 November 2015 7:25:08 PM
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I wont withdraw my assertion that israel is or will be a theocracy.
I never said you stated such, Im sure you are very careful not to, but all your calls for recognition can only lead to that conclusion.

Israel is asking for recognition as "the home of the jews". In other words the home country for one particular religion. That is a theocracy. A country defined by its dominant religion and run to accommodate that religion. Do you deny that israeli society accedes and preferences jewish religious beliefs. Unlike any other country.

Just because other countries like iran and saudi arabia are theocracies does that justify israel joining them?

I dont hate jews. I hate all religions.

You continually ignore and marginalise the people of Palestine. Its as if they dont exist as real human beings to you. How can you negotiate with jordan a country who does not represent the Palestinian people? To just ignore the actual real people who live in the west bank and say that negotiations with jordan is all that is needed is just more of the same evil land grab that we all know is at the root of israel and its murderous ways. Eretz israel. From the Mediterranean sea to the Jordan river. Sickening and disgusting and mark my words singer israel will not be allowed to do it. I know it looks like you are slowly succeeding but the world is turning and it will come to an end.

As much as you would love us to go away and let you post your propaganda in peace it aint gunna happen davey boy. We are here until israel stops occupying, invading and oppresing their neighbors.
We want you to give up your nukes and become a real democracy too and we arent going away till you do!

Bloody godbotherers and their evil ways. When will we be free from monsters and ghouls and all the other fairy stories destroying this world?
Posted by mikk, Monday, 23 November 2015 9:48:36 AM
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#mikk

You state:
"I wont withdraw my assertion that israel is or will be a theocracy.
I never said you stated such"

Lie

This is what you said:

"Singer says it is a jewish theocracy."
Posted by mikk, Friday, 20 November 2015 5:40:51 PM

Corresponding with liars is a waste of time.

Are you now prepared to withdraw your false assertion?
Posted by david singer, Monday, 23 November 2015 1:20:28 PM
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Hi mikk,

Suppose that the Kurds expand their hold on territory in northern Syria/Iraq and declared that they would be happy to provide a safe and permanent 'homeland for the Yazidis'. I don't think we would infer from that that a Kurdish state would be a theocracy.

Israel is home for well over a million Arabs, Muslim and Christian. If you can point us to a Muslim theocracy which is was comfortable with a fifth of its population not actually being of the dominant faith, that it allows and funds their schools and places of worship, I'll pay attention :)

Is it true, mikk, that in Israel, on the Temple Mount, around the al-Aqsa Mosque, built (like so many conquerors do) right on top of the ruins of the Temple of Solomon, that by law Hebrew is not to be spoken ? i.e. that the Israeli government enforces a law that their language is not to be spoken on this part of their territory ? Can you point to any Muslim country, Saudi or Turkey or Iran, where Arabic or Turkish or Farsi is not to be spoken around a synagogue built on top of one of their mosques ?

Yes, I know it's an absurd question. Do you have any answer, absurd or otherwise ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 23 November 2015 1:54:58 PM
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Ok singer you got me. You did not say it, I apologise. People like you never state the truth just the spin. Doesnt change the facts on the ground singer.
I still stand by my statement that israel is and intends to be a theocracy.

So come on singer answer my questions. Or is that too much of a waste of time for you?
Posted by mikk, Monday, 23 November 2015 5:26:24 PM
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Like I said loudmouth just because some other country does bad things how does it make it ok for israel to join them?

I didnt know the kurds were a religious group. I thought they were an ethnic group. It would depend if their religious beliefs ruled their government and society. If so they would be a theocracy.
Posted by mikk, Monday, 23 November 2015 5:31:05 PM
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Hi Mikk,

'I didn't know the Kurds were a religious group. I thought they were an ethnic group. It would depend if their religious beliefs ruled their government and society. If so they would be a theocracy.'

That was my point, that to offer a religious group a 'homeland' doesn't make the offering government theocratic. Precisely. No, the Kurds are not a specific religious group, it seems that one can be Sunni, Shi'ite, Yazidi, Chaldean, Assyrian, Zoroastrian, Mandean, even Jewish, and still be Kurd:

"According to recent reports, there are between 400-730 Jewish families living in the Kurdish region. On October 18, the Kurdistan Regional Government named Sherzad Omar Mamsani, a Kurdish Jew, as the Jewish representative of the Ministry of Endowment and Religious Affairs." [Wikipedia]

I believe that at one time, the Western Australian government offered Zionists room for a Jewish homeland in the Kimberley. I don't know why they knocked it back. As well, the British offered pat of Uganda as a Jewish homeland. But I don't recall the Western Australian or British governments being theocratic at the time.

Just trying to help :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 23 November 2015 6:03:05 PM
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#mikk

Well well...
"Ok singer you got me. You did not say it, I apologise. People like you never state the truth just the spin."

You don't even know how to apologise gracefully and sincerely.

Tell me one specific example you can point to where I have not told the truth just the spin - or apologise and withdraw that remark as well.
Posted by david singer, Monday, 23 November 2015 7:28:53 PM
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Everything you say is spin and lies singer.
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 2:00:53 AM
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Mikk,

Just about everything you say is incorrect, however, I am not sure whether it is due to ignorance or deceit.

For example a theocracy is defined as: A form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities. As this clearly does not apply to Israel, you can continue to assert that black is white, but no one will believe you
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 10:40:49 AM
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