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The Forum > Article Comments > Do we have religious freedom anymore? > Comments

Do we have religious freedom anymore? : Comments

By Mike Bird, published 19/11/2015

Now 'tolerance' means that if you say anything that I find offensive, then I am fully justified in seeking punitive measures to destroy you.

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"But if you are a Christian isn't Jesus' quoted command to not judge? [Matthew 7:1]"
No as you are not reading it in the full context; rubeum allec'.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 20 November 2015 9:05:54 PM
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1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last, save one. 10 And runner did step forward, and said unto Jesus, I is I lord. I alone am without sin, I beseech you: let me cast the stone. 11 And Jesus said, By our own hand, runner. 12 And runner took a great stone and smote the woman mightily. 13 And Jesus was seen to shake his head and heard to mutter, Christ, why do I even bother?
- Runner 8:1-13
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 20 November 2015 10:15:43 PM
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runner,

Oh please, do tell us all what the other side of the story is that I'm apparently overlooking, won't you?

ttbn,

How you could say this after the list of immoral Christian teachings I listed is beyond me.

<<Without a Christian background, you are not in a position to judge what is moral and what is not.>>

Perhaps you simply shut what I said out and that's why I got nothing but another assertion as a response?

Do you mind expanding on what you mean here? Surely, as a non-believer, you don't think our morality comes from Christianity. If that were the case, then how would you explain morality before Christianity? Or the fact that Christian nations didn't suddenly become more moral when it did enter the scene?

If you do think that our morality comes from Christianity, then please enlighten us as to how it did so despite its immoral teachings. Surely you don't mean the golden rule? That was around long before Christianity and if you think we needed religion to make us all aware of such a basic common sense rule of thumb, then I would worry about your personal moral compass. Such basic social etiquette is, after all, an evolved trait.
Posted by AJ Philips, Friday, 20 November 2015 10:34:30 PM
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The existence of freedom of speech and religion seems clear. The booklet was written, printed and distributed was it not? It is still extant.

It has also been challenged and the parties are in conciliation talks... which is a part of freedom of speech and religion.

But that the Catholic Bishops are seeking obedience and compliance with their own ideology beyond their jurisdiction is a separate discourse. That is the area where freedom becomes imposition on the 'differently religious'.

To clarify, Is Mise... I did reference the verse and I have studied it in context across the synoptic gospels as well as that of Thomas and yes it is: non docent avia tua sugere ova.

"There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. Who art thou that judgest another?" [James 4:12]
Posted by WmTrevor, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:30:23 PM
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WmTrevor - that comic is an even less accurate summary of Christian theology than the other guy's.

It's only the very privileged in this world who don't feel like they need saving from something.

It seems both that cartoon and AJ Philips's notion that there's "no need for redemption" without a specific theological belief are making the same mistake. Both are treating Christian beliefs as abstract from real life. I.e. both think God doesn't want to save people from poverty, slavery, injustice, alienation, war etc., like she did in the Bible (see e.g. Exodus 2, the founding story of the Jewish faith). Rather, she wants to save us from abstract theological doctrines. This is a completely different religion to true Jewish or Christian belief. That said, Christians (so-called... more like gnostics) invented this misconception and are entirely to blame when outsiders have picked it up too.
Posted by elcalebo, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:37:38 PM
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ttbn, I will assume you are not a Marcionite or anti-Jewish, i.e. that you meant to say "Without a Jewish or Christian background."

Nonetheless, I invite you to consult the various Biblical materials suggesting people outside of Jewish-Christian sacred history do have some access and accountability to moral standards. E.g. the Proverbs which rely on observation of the patterns of the world rather than special revelation (and incorporate content from non-Israelites, e.g. Prov 31:1-9). Or the various other nations held accountable in the Prophets, not to Israel's law but to more general moral standards (see e.g. Amos 1 - 2:5 ... note also Amos 9:7 which hints at YHWH's relationships with other peoples). Or the Noachide laws. Or Romans 2:6-16 which says that the Gentiles have the law's requirements "written on their hearts" and their consciences.

Having said that, it's undoubtedly true that Jewish and Christian teachings have affected this general, natural morality for the better (something AJ Philips seems to deny).
E.g. ceasing the practice of abandoning unwanted born babies (disproportionately girls) to die. Or the erosion of slavery until its revival in the era of colonization. Or the "self-evident" humanist notion that "all [people] are created equal," which certainly has not been self-evident for all societies; it's self-evident in liberal democracies because of years of Christian influence (though, sadly, even when the abstract principle is self-evident, people can ignore it in practice... American society, for example, constantly has to be reminded that black lives matter).
Posted by elcalebo, Friday, 20 November 2015 11:41:59 PM
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