Any correlation between F/A's and suicide has yet to be demonstrated. In my experience anybody intent on taking their own life will turn to whatever means are available to them. Often depending very much upon their age and gender, as to how they may go about it. Furthermore the desperation too, often prescribes, the means ?

Moreover our politicians must accept, any further imposition of tighter restrictions on licit shooters, will only serve to further marginalise them, and generate even worse negative publicity, for them and their legitimate sport.

Whereas, all parties should realise there's got to be a climate of co-operation and communication between - the shooters, police, and the lawmakers, in their collective endeavours to interdict illicit F/A's importation, and the criminals who bring 'em into the country.

Without that combined synergy, a prosperous underground F/A trade will only continue to proliferate unabated. A couple of points I've seen raised herein - and I'd like to add my own observation, based purely on my own experiential evidence ?

There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever, certain ethnic groups see the possession, ownership and use of F/A's as a fundamental 'right' and a important part of their culture. Notwithstanding the laws that have been framed to control the possession and use of those F/A'S.

Many of these groups form distribution points, for trafficking illegal F/A's. Therefore authorities (Customs & Police), who're trying to obtain intelligence on their operations, encounter a wall of silence, a complete lack of co-operation and the 'usual' language barrier ?

Governments (State & Federal) must throw all available resources, into targeting the ethnic criminal groups who illegally importing weapons into the country, with the heaviest of penalties for those caught.

My own suggestion...ANY indictable offence where a F/A forms part of the, 'commission of that offence' if proven, a mandatory ten (10) years is automatically tacked on to the penalty phase. An example; six years for 'Aggravated Burglary' because the offender was in possession of a F/A, he receives an additional ten years ! No parole, or remission - a full ten years !

How I choose to spend my time is no concern of yours LEGO. If I want to not spend my time looking at all the fogies arguing among themselves, that's my choice. If you choose to hit refresh every 5 minutes, that's yours.

The argument from history is bunk. As you mentioned, many countries has non-existent firearm laws, they also had non-existent drug laws around the same time. Perhaps we should legalise all drugs as well, regardless of the potential for harm. The drugs have also changed of course, as has the societal norms, as certainly has the firearm technology which allows dozens of people to be killed within a few minutes by a single weapon.

It is these that should certainly be controlled.

Gun control is NOT a euphemism and it is not about abolition, that is a made-up hyperbolic strawman argument. The latest news stories provided by onthebeach to me is not a justification for relaxing guns laws, quite the opposite in my opinion. At least you know who gang criminals are: they're the ones firing guns in suburban areas.

And Is Mise, you have to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica to try and get support your argument? Seriously?

I admit that that crime and gun crime are multi-factorial and that cultural influences play a large role. Which is why Australians choose what they think is right for our country, and they have. It's just not YOUR choice, you're in the minority. Boobloodyhoo.

Here's a question for you though: why would the American NRA make up fake crime statistics about Australia?

I use guns on the family farm, am part of a family of licensed gun owners and grew up in the daily company of two neighboring "uncles": one served in WWI, the other in New-Guinea in WWII. The respect I learned for weapons preceded touching one for the vast majority of my childhood and young adulthood.

I am part of the group of people that sees itself as responsible, capable and reasonable gun owners, and I have no problem with current Australian gun laws. I would like to see *more* enforcement of certain points: I would like to see possession of *any* unregistered weapon by *anybody* as an offense. I would like to see possession of *any* weapon (registered or not) by someone unlicensed to do so as an offense. I would like *all* registered weapons to have barrel-striations on record, and all future legal weapons to have deliberate scorings in the barrel that mark every round distinctively and uniquely. I think all factory rounds and shot should be tagged by minor metallurgical inclusions that allow routine identification of the batch and likely distribution and sale points. I think absolutely none of the above would impede a single legitimate Australian gun user. I am willing to bet my guns won't be stolen or misused and I am happy to register any further guns I obtain. I am happy to have such guns and their rounds capable of *positive* identification, so they can be *excluded* from suspicion.

The criminals who use weapons outside the law can argue their case from inside gaol, being summarily guilty of possession/misuse/unlicensed use of an unregistered/excessive firearm independent of any consequences or "intent" they may imagine arguable.

I think that Australian-style gun laws would be a great benefit to ordinary Americans. They have allowed a sub-culture of violence to flourish and laws such as ours and enforcement of the points I raise would clearly distinguish the capable and law-abiding ("well-organised") American gun owners from the violent criminals whose "rights" have been mistakenly and disastrously conflated by the NRA with those of the competent and capable.

Rusty

Bugsy, "Gun control is NOT a euphemism and it is not about abolition"

Oh yes it is, on both counts. Bans and more bans and you know it. It reflects on your credibility that you don't admit it.

"The latest news stories provided by onthebeach to me is not a justification for relaxing guns laws"

You and your strawman. Where was I talking about 'relaxing' laws?

The point, which of course you have refused to address, is that the whole aim and sly intent of the artifice that is 'gun control' is to inconvenience, penalise (through random police checks in their homes to take an example) and strip away the rights of the very citizens who DO obey the laws to pursue their interests in game, competition, collecting or whatever.

Bugsy, "firearm technology which allows dozens of people to be killed within a few minutes by a single weapon"

Where have any of the highly legitimate associations and clubs that represent those many thousands of law-abiding, licensed firearms owners ever asked for anything like that?

You make it all up to sledge the PROVED good, honest, respectable people who are likely your own neighbours, your treating doctor, the retiree across the road, but why? What have they ever done to deserve your hatred?

Anyhow, if it comes down to it, car licences enable and are in fact crucial for almost all crime and certainly serious crime against people. So why the hell aren't you volunteering yourself and making it obligatory for all who want to own or control a vehicle to undergo the same checks as apply in the case of firerams licences?

Gun control are the secretive unrepresentative few who skulk behind closed doors - totalitarians who would scare the daylights out of George Orwell if he was alive today.

Now what about some answers on who is behind 'Gun Control', where they get their support, their links with domestic and international

Thanks for outing yourself as a conspiracy nut OTB.

I don't really have anything more to say to all that. At least people can read it now and decide for themselves who is being hyperbolic and just plain OTT.

Dear LEGO,

Lol.

“Missing in action”?

Actually worked most of this weekend and an early start tomorrow. Perhaps in future you might try and give a bloke at least 48 hours rather than 15 before pulling that crap. Some of us do have other lives.

You wrote;

“OK, I submitted my figures from memory, and I admit that I got it wrong.”

Congratulations for at least acknowledging your figures were actually the opposite of what the facts were, something Rhosty was unable to do.

Further by saying you had 'submitted them from memory' reinforces my previous point. These obviously came from a gun rights source which you have picked up and ran with without bothering to check its veracity. That sir is blind and wilful ignorance.

You wrote;

“We have two premises here. Yours appears to be, that reducing the number of firearms reduces suicides, and that this is born out by your graph.”

Incorrect. We have only one premise that was dealt with in this exchange and it was yours;

“Faced with the unpleasant truth that gun crime was rising, the anti gun lobby fiddled the figures by including firearm suicides with murders. They claimed that since firearm related suicides fell after the gun buyback, it had obviously saved lives. They even extrapolated the statistics to determine how many lives had been saved by the gun buyback. This was an outright lie. Despite the reduction of firearm related suicides, the suicide rate actually rose. People considering suicide simply used another method.”

To be precise your premise was that the 'anti gun lobby' of 'fiddling figures' and of 'outright lying'. That has been shown to be rubbish full stop.