David, are you essentially saying that every spiritual teacher dating back as far as mankind has existed, including even Buddha (who was an atheist, yet spiritual) was full of crap?

It seems you've developed a hate for spirituality. That is irrational and close minded.

Have you ever taken the time or made the effort to learn the deeper teachings of Eastern philosophy which are essentially the study of the mind? If you haven't then you really are in no position to criticise, unless of course you think modern psychology is also just a load of mumbo-jumbo.

What is actually wrong with 'feeling compassion, a sense of right and wrong, love and a desire for justice' if it happens to come out of a spiritual belief system? It shouldn't matter how you get there if you live and lead a life with the above qualities. What other people are believing shouldn't be your concern if it doesn't negatively effect you personally.

I accept not everyone needs religion, I don't, but many do learn better ways of thinking and behaving through their chosen religions? More people are doing good and behaving properly as a result of their religion, than the number giving their religion a bad reputation.

There's no need to universally put down all religions and spiritual belief as mumbo-jumbo. It's offensive.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

My opinion is offensive to you. Demonstrate that it is inaccurate or false, and I will respond.

Dear Craig,

Perhaps our difference is a matter of semantics or belief. My belief is that there is nothing outside of the natural world. I understand spirituality to mean that there is something outside of this phenomenal world - unseen entities that cannot be detected by our senses or any scientific instruments. I ask you whether you mean something other by spirituality.

Al Smith, an American politician, used to say, "Let's look at the record." We cannot be sure what Jesus, Buddha, Moses or other spiritual leaders said since what we have is written records contaminated by words that various people wished they had said, and so we cannot be sure exactly what they said. According to one of the Buddhist traditions, Buddha on his death bed, said, "Doubt everything." IMHO that's a fine sentiment. Other Buddhist traditions say otherwise. However, we can examine what religions have done.

One source I have read in this search is John Ferguson's "War and Peace in the World's Religions" Ferguson examined 15 religions. In each he found traditions for war and traditions for peace. There was no faith he could call thoroughly warlike or thoroughly peaceful.

Christianity has produced the Quakers, the Catholic Dorothy Day Houses and other pacifist groups. Judaism has produced the Jewish Peace fellowship, the refuseniks in Israel and other groups that have rejected violence. In Czarist Russia there was even an imam who sponsored a non-violent Jihad. However, the conclusion I have come to is the tendency to violence in religion will generally win out because it is a greater expression of faith to do what in ordinary course would be unthinkable such as Abraham sacrificing his son. I have read Kierkegaard’s “Fear and Trembling” where he justifies that test of faith. My reading of eastern philosophy is limited. I have read Keven Burns’ “Eastern Philosophy”. At 89 I have a limited time. From the limited knowledge that I have I think all religion and spiritual belief are mumbojumbo.

Dear David F.,

<<I don’t believe God ever said anything. The God in any religion is just a creation of the human imagination.>>

Great, then you agree, in your own way, that no God ever told people to conquer others and commit atrocities - In this case, what remains are cunning and cruel nationalist rulers who stopped at nothing to obtain their ambitions, including the invention of gods and inserting whatever words they like in their mouths.

Why then complain about religion, knowing well that those were pretenders rather than truly religious? How is it possible to simultaneously believe that religion does not exist AND that it is bad/dangerous?

<<The belief that a creation of the human imagination actually exists is a destructive and dangerous one.>>

I'm not sure whether it necessarily is [destructive and dangerous], but why bother when there are very few, probably only a handful of people who subscribe to such a belief!

---

Dear Hippie,

<<What is actually wrong with 'feeling compassion, a sense of right and wrong, love and a desire for justice' if it happens to come out of a spiritual belief system?>>

More likely, the desire for a righteous and compassionate living comes first, then only a belief system is added to reinforce it.

<<It shouldn't matter how you get there if you live and lead a life with the above qualities.>>

Yes - in other words, religion is inherently there regardless whether or not you are aware of and rationalise it. A belief system, however, can help you through when times are rough and clouds obscure your path.

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Dear Craig,

.

You wrote :

« The Annunciation story may well be "true". Have a look at Steven Fry's documentary on bipolar disorder on Youtube. One of the common themes among those interviewed(and Fry himself) is that they do not want to be "cured". One of them notably says "Why would I? I get to converse with Angels!". Their "illness" is a disorder largely because it puts them into opposition with the rationalist world around them. In a mythical culture that would be regarded as part of the range of normality. Roman Judaea was hardly 21st century empirical rationalist central and the Torah is full of prophets doing just that. Their explanations may be off-key, but that doesn't mean they are "fake". »
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Of course not. I was referring to the “narratives” - not the persons - commenting on what Peter considers to be “entirely invented narratives” such as the annunciation to Mary of her conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

Having said that, we have no way of knowing if Mary existed or not. All that is certain is that if Jesus existed, he must have had a mother.

Presuming that both mother and son existed, the next question is : who, then, was the author of the tale of the enunciation? Of course, it could have been Mary. Perhaps, as you suggest, she was suffering from some mental disorder such as bipolarity or - why not, for that matter? – Schizophrenia, either of which could have been aggravated by her pregnancy. She was purported to have been 17 years old at the time and 6 months pregnant.

According to today’s geneticists, both mental disorders have a very significant genetic component. In other words, they are both hereditary. Jesus could have inherited the mental disorder from his mother or, alternatively, she could have brought him up in the delusion that the Holy Spirit really was his genitor.

If, however, Mary and Jesus did not exist, then the New Testament should be placed on the library shelves next to Greek and Norse mythology.

http://www.health.com/health/condition-article/0,,20275258,00.html

http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/hereditygen.htm

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Dear Yuyutsu,

I complain about religion because religion claims that delusions actually exist.

"From the limited knowledge that I have I think all religion and spiritual belief are mumbojumbo." - Davidf

There you go, "limited knowledge" is the problem. The purpose of Eastern philosophy (not the superficial religious dogmas) is to attain knowledge and discover the truth though learning to realise your true nature, your unlimited potential. But to gain this knowledge you have to try; you have to examine areas within yourself that you've never seen. It takes a serious dedicated effort. Being 89 is not too late.

Calling it mumbo-jumbo because you don't understand or because you refuse to accept there are possibilities beyond your 'limited knowledge', or because you've got some misguided assumption all religions are bad, is offensive to me because I'm open minded to the possibility a whole lot is going on that we are not aware of. To me, you are simply displaying a stubborn close mindedness that in itself is offensive.

David, you have to admit there are many intelligent/successful people who are religious and/or have spiritual believes. Do you really think all these people are essentially just full of crap?

Your opinion is just that, an opinion, and no more valid than anyone else's, especially when you are discussing things from a completely close minded perspective.