The snipers didn't shoot because the police weren't sure he was alone or booby traps weren't set. This was not the fault of police but of Islam. At least now in multicultural Australia our food is better.

Dane: the police weren't sure he was alone or booby traps weren't set.

The police were well aware that Monis was acting alone & had a weapon. They were told that by the guy that bumped into him going into the Café.

O'Riley: It is also clear from TV footage that the sniper had many clear opportunities.

Yes it was & I noted that at the time. The Glass in the Café was Bank Grade though so that would have been a problem. A blunted .50 Cal. would have solved that problem though. That's one reason that the Army TAC Squad should be the ones left to deal with these guys. & Keep the bloody Lawyers away.

O'Riley: His (Senator David Leyonhjelm) advocacy for much liberalised gun laws was much criticised in the media and by politicians.

That would allow all the bad guys to carry weapons. That would be a dam side more than good people. Wrong call.

O'Riley: investigations is whether Monis should have been allowed into the country in the first place.

I should say so & his advocates should be charged with reckless endangerment of Australia.

We don't have to allow these people into Australia. See below, from the UNCHR C & P.

Article 1
Definition of the term “refugee”

C. This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:
(a) he has committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes;

Article 33
Prohibition of expulsion or return (“refoulement”)

2. The benefit of the present provision may not, however, be claimed by a refugee whom there are reasonable grounds for regarding as a danger to the security of the country in which he is, or who, having been convicted by a final judgment of a particularly serious crime, constitutes a danger to the community of that country.

A couple of points:
The police could have taken him out early in the siege. Should have? Maybe, and maybe they will next time.
If any fault is to be laid, ask first 1) why Monishad wasn't returned to Iran to face charges for alleged crimes committed there when Australia was asked to do so by Iranian authorities, and 2) why he was out on bail for alleged violent offences committed here.

While I can agree with most of your piece Brendan, I can't let you get away with this bit, "Leyonhjelm's critics have failed to recognise that he was probably correct in the first part of his argument (that lives could well have been saved had the civilians involved in the Martin Place hostage situation been carrying firearms). The main flaw in Leyonhjelm's logic is that he fails to recognise that very liberal gun laws will (in addition to enabling "good guys" to defend themselves with firearms) inevitably lead to more guns falling into the hands of "bad guys" so that public safety is more likely to suffer than improve."

This is utter garbage Brendan. Criminals have access to all the guns they could ever want, & always will have. Supplying criminals guns is just a nice government sponsored exclusive industry for them, with legitimate traders excluded.

I can't agree with a word of yours Dane. The bomb thing was just a nice piece of rationalisation by the top cops, who were short of the intestinal fortitude to order, or permit the shot. They wouldn't let the army unit in, because they thought they knew better. Actually The whole fiasco was territory defence by AN incompetent cop. Top heads must roll over these mistakes. He lady is not suitable for, or up to the job.

As for food, garbage. We now eat more garbage, dressed up as food, because we can no longer afford the good wholesome food we once could. Probably the result of spending too much on multiculturalism, bludgers & slack cops, who don't get the job done.

Yes Brendan, somebody should have shot this animal before he killed or caused the death of anyone else!

As for the police, where do you get off believing it's easier for a police sniper to gun down a armed offender/hostage taker, than anyone else!

Snuffing out a life is no easy thing!
Albeit somewhat easier, when you're definitely the intended target!

I'm afraid I'm with the good Senator, and hope commonsense finally prevails before any more innocent lives are sacrificed on the alter of anti gun Ideology!

A gun is just metal and wood, and as far as I'm aware, not one gun during the entire course of human history, has climbed down from the gun rack and taken itself on a killing spree!

Its only when a gun gets into the wrong hands, and currently that seems to be any criminal who wants one!

The claims that any gun used in a crime was once owned by a legal owner or dealer, is just that; entirely unsubstantiated claims!

In Japan, said to have the toughest gun laws in the world, around 40% of households keep a firearm secreted inside the house, with many others keeping razor sharp swords!
And possibly the very reason their break and enter crime is relatively low?

Prohibition, whether it be guns, drugs, alcohol, suicide or abortion is impossible; always has been, always will be!

Better we have a prohibited persons register and lawful gun owners once again cooperating with the authorities!

Had there been a few law abiding citizens armed with concealable weapons at Port Arthur, Killer Bryant, would have been lucky to get his weapon from his bag, let alone chamber a round and commence firing!

We need to change the law, to make self defense INSIDE YOUR WALLS with lethal force a legitimate right, as is defending your castle, with a man's home or place of business being that castle!

People with no legitimate right to be there, should just stay away!
It really is that simple!
Rhrosty

Hal,

Imagine the screams of 'compassion' from Hanson-Young if he had been returned to Iran.

Obviously, on the face of it, the snipers were under orders NOT to take him out when they easily could, in order to try to bring this terrorist act to a peaceful conclusion. He thwarted that objective by killing two innocent people, one perhaps by 'accident'. His cry that "See what you made me do !" is the mark of a psychopath, a person who sees himself as forever guiltless, no matter what he does.

But nevertheless he used terror in an attempt to force his wishes on the Government, it didn't matter to him who might get hurt in the process. A standard mark of a terrorist.

Joe

Monis was a Muslim terrorist following the call of ISIS to do damage.

The moment it was realised this guy was an Islamist, the shot should have been taken.

Is Mise' the USA were terrorists by dropping cluster bombs during the Vietnam war to do damage, and they are still maiming and killing people, there are terrorists in all societies who believe they are right when they are completely wrong, there is no difference between one and the other.

Onjab did I see you at the mass demonstration against the Taliban for killing all those school children the other day.

No? I didn't think so. Why is that?

No Jayb because the killing of children is not only done by the Taliban, perhaps have a look at both sides of the fence instead of one side, neither have any qualms about killing children, but of course some children are different to others where enemies are concerned, but all children are innocent of crimes regardless of there deranged peers.

Onjab,

I'm sure most of us on this thread would condemn any American action forty years ago that resulted in the death of innocent children, from 30,000 feet.

That was then, this is now.

Do you or don't you condemn the murder of 130 children, lined up and shot one by one, by the Taliban ? Do you condemn the shooting in the face of Malala with intent to murder (now THERE's courage) for wanting to get an education ?

Do you condemn the beheading of innocent children in Iraq and Syria by ISIS ? Do you or don't you condemn the rape and enslavement of thousands of non-Muslim women by ISIS ? Do you condemn the lining up of thousands of prisoners to be shot, Babi Yar-style, by ISIS ? [Look it up on Wikipedia]

Do you condemn the murder of thousands, the kidnapping, rape and enslavement of hundreds of girls, in Nigeria, in Boko haram's hatred of education ? The murder of non-Muslim fishermen in Nigeria ? The murder of fifty quarry-workers in Kenya ? The murder of non-Muslim passengers on a bus in Kenya, taken off and shot one by one ?

No ? Then you are no better than any other lickspittle apologist for terrorism. And you probably think of yourself as 'Left'. Disgusting.

Can't you see what your 'friends' are opposing ? Everything that is potentially progressive in the world, particularly education, particularly education for girls, the salvation of the Third World.

So whose side are you on ? Reaction or, imperfect as they may be, the fruits of the Enlightenment ? A perfect dystopia or an imperfect world ?

Joe

As eluded to above accurately getting a shot through glass is deceptively easy in Hollywood but in real life not so easy. Especially difficult when it's safety glass at an angle. Supprised the anti-gun mob haven't explained that yet. They're experts on everything shooting related.

And shooting someone who isn't immediately threatening anyone yet is a line crossing in itself. If we're going to shoot people before they physically threaten then how early would the preventionists have us act? When they're doing questionable finger paintings perhaps?? That's a path best left unexplored.

A bullet through the window that missed it's mark would simply be a signal to the dropkick it's time to get on with it.

David Leyonhjelm is the only one talking sense. Point is if there was a possibility one of the customers there or more likely the manager was armed the chances of successfull completion of a nutters plan would be so uncertain the nutter'd be less inclined to try it on in the first place. Ambiguity is the key to deterrence. At the moment there's certainty. Certainty hostages will be powerless.

Does anyone remember the message in the childrens movie "karate kid"?
Danielson learned karate not so he could fight but so he wouldn't have to.

Anyway, the idea's out there now. Wannabe martyrs know the population's vulnerable. They know their acts will attract media sensation. They know there'll be a grand firey finale. And they know the nation will set upon itself in the aftermath.
So expect more to come.

Hmmm, let's see.
Do we want to arm our citizens with more guns to make our society safer, like in the USA?

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year in Australia in 2011 was 0.86. (According to Wikipedia).

Firearm related death rate per 100, 000 population per year in America in 2011 was 10.6. Violent crime rates are much higher in the USA.

Ooh yes, that sounds much safer....

As I understand it, to take out someone behind glass two shots are required, and probably two highly coordinated and professional shooters. The first takes out the glass, the second takes the mark.
The hostage taker in the coffee shop had already established himself as a threat. He had placed himself in that position.
David Leyonhjelm is not talking sense.

Suse,

More guns means a safer society,

"The key facts are:

• The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people
• But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
• Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean"

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Ok Is Mise, but where is Australia on that list, and do we want to join the rest of those countries at the top of the list?

I like Australia as it is, and as one of the most prized immigration destinations in the world, so does everyone else.
So why would we want more killing machines out there in the community?

Suseonline so you speak for "everyone" do you. Wow.

As one of the "everyone" I must say I do fear the same things you fear.
Difference is I realise things aren't always going to work out the way we wish they would no matter how hard we wish.

A society free of "killing machines" would be nice but it just doesn't exist and frankly it never will.
Bad guys will always exist and they'll always seek an advantage. Only thing we can do is reduce potential advantages. In other words we should work to ensure equality can exist. In this case that would mean defending the right to posess a viable means of self defence.

jamo: In this case that would mean defending the right to posess a viable means of self defence.

I would have agreed with you 40 years ago. Unfortunately the number of fruit cases, I wouldn't allow even near a butter knife, has increases out of sight. It's not safe to allow anybody to have a firearm licence nowadays. Believe me, some people who have gun licences, shouldn't have them. That clown in Bundaberg for one.

Even for OLO's frothing-mouthed hoplophobes there is some wild stuff going on in this thread.

A sit down and a cold glass of water and lets get some facts,

http://www.skynews.com.au/video/program_agenda/2014/12/18/agenda-monis-was--never-licensed-.html

To on the beach.

You would do whatever causes you espouse much better service if you bothered to write a reasoned argument, instead of routniely submitting sneery one liners and then disappearing into cyberspace.

Suse,

You said " Violent crime rates are much higher in the USA."

So that we can discuss this on an even keel, what do you define as violent crime?

The interesting part of the hostage episode is the mouths shut of what really went on, why haven't the hostages spoken to the press, who shot the injured taken to hospital and who really killed the two deceased, when will the truth come out . Most things these days the truth never ever comes out, only what they want you to hear, what happened to the two aeroplanes, a fighter jet was in the vicinity of one, was the other also shot down, they know the answers but possibly are quite happy to feed the gullible public untruths. I want to hear the facts not media crap. Monis was a mentally deranged man from day one of his arrival, terrorist is the flavour of the day, we are led to believe that terrorists are hiding all over the country, so beware, be frightened, have a look in the nearest rubbish bin, a bomb may be there, in actual fact mentally deranged people have always been with us and will also be around into the future as well, they all will be tagged to frighten you, the biggest terrorists are the ones in Government, these are the ones to be scared of as they will control your freedoms and life, so beware.

Onjab,

Monis claimed allegiance to ISIS and held up a shop-full of hostages. In itself, without anything else, that signifies a terrorist act, and one in the name of Allah, hence the flag. I'm not saying that Allah, if he or she exists, would have approved, just that Monis was acting in his or her name.

After all, if a person took a bus-load of people hostage in, say, Saudi Arabia, and in the name of Krishna or Jesus, threatened to kill them all, then we would rightly assume that he (or she) was carrying out a terrorist act in the name of Krishna or Jesus.

Not that that seems to happen too often, I'm sure you'd agree. When it does, the world will call it as it is, a terrorist act in the name of a god.

Joe

Joe

<<Imagine the screams of 'compassion' from Hanson-Young if he had been returned to Iran.>>

EXACTLY!
SBS, the ABC and all the tax-payer funded advocates would have run a SAVE POOR MONIS CAMPAIGN, and made him out to be a new Mother Teresa.

I love the cowardly game the Greens are now playing distancing themselves from ex state labor leader Robertson who wrote a reference for Monis. The Greens more than any other group are responsible for the likes of Monis getting here.

Apparently the defenders of Monis like Onjab believe if a Muslim man blows himself up in the middle of a public space, screaming Allah Akbar as he detonates the explosives he's not really a Muslim terrorist because either the West made him do it or he wasn't really a Muslim. Likewise when a man who has proven to be a fully functioning member of society, albeit controversial and criminally inclined, and as far as we know has no history of mental illness, holds hostages; displays an Islamic flag; demands to talk with Tony Abbott to negotiate the hostages freedom, states he is doing this act for ISIS and eventually kills a hostage; he also is not a terrorist but a deranged gunman. Islam never has anything to do with the numerous terrorists committed almost on a daily basis around the globe.

So Onjab, NC, McAdam, Junaid let me get this straight? To be a genuine terrorist one must be sane; crazy people cannot be terrorists; to blow yourself up is not usually associated with sanity and so not terrorism. Terrorism is committed by Western governments in defence of people under attack by righteous Muslim extremist who are also not terrorist. All terrorists come from the West and anyone who questions such logic is a bigot?

Conservative Hippie please answer the questions I asked, why have the hostages mouths been shut, the names of the four injured,, who shot them, perhaps you can enlighten me, could this whole thing been handled better where no lives were lost, I do not like terrorists any more than you do, but until the actual truth comes out of the whole exercise it is open to cover up, you may think my thoughts are my own but many people are very suspicious of a Government that can lie, their aim to create a police state for all of us, you may want that I want to feel free to demonstrate if need be. Poverty and unemployment is going to create many more deranged, sorry terrorists, people do not need all stupid religions to be mentally deranged. Sorry again terrorists, I forgot.

Something just hit me. The Islamic lovers are saying Monis wasn't an Islamic Terrorist. He was just a "deranged individual." Hmmm...

Then I suggest that all the Paedophiles Priests that the same people blame on the Catholic Church, strange they never mention other Denominations, Boy Scouts or the Salvos, must also be "deranged individuals" too. Just a thought.

The same people that go out of their way to support these terrorists are also the ones that condemn only the Catholic Church. Why is that?

@LEGO, Thursday, 25 December 2014 4:45:07 AM

That is unfair. For any who are familiar with my posting history I am probably long in argument and most usually cite sources.

On this occasion I believe that the video I linked to puts a reasoned case, contributing to the thread.

Since that was your only post on the thread, might not your criticism apply to yourself?

To On The Beach.

I don't respond to links because I have been burned before. Some contributors have cited links as their arguments, and then when I took the time to analyse and criticise the double standards and contradictions on those links, they simply responded "I didn't agree with that part of the link anyway."

Whatever you agree with on your links, summarise it and present it as a reasoned argument, in your own words.

"We need to change the law, to make self defense INSIDE YOUR WALLS with lethal force a legitimate right, as is defending your castle, with a man's home or place of business being that castle!

People with no legitimate right to be there, should just stay away!
It really is that simple!
Rhrosty"

Agree 100% with that. Well said.

Problem we have is there're so many now who demand a say in what goes on within our own private spaces it's hard to know if there really is any such thing as private property any more. We only know there's private liability.